Have it your way -- with a 60% horse doping prevelance rate, we have further confirmation that doping hasn't really improved since the '70s.
Good point.
Wrong. Fake stat. Like most you produce, doping denier.
Ironic that you are the one denying doping now, after I tell you that horse doping is 60%.
According to Fred Hudson, a veteran standardbred trainer and CEO of the US Harness Racing Alumni Association, in June 2023, "Up to 60% of racehorses are doped, trainer warns during troubling death spree: 'Lots of illegal drugs'".
This post was edited 12 minutes after it was posted.
So many paragraphs attempting to argue he is wrong about you. He isn't. You have proved how clueless you are about doping - again and again. He really hit home.
It was a swing and a miss. Strike one.
Without bases, these remain baseless opinions, from both you and him. It cannot be right until it is instantiated by identifying information or knowledge which I didn't yet have. Neither you nor he were able to do that.
3 letters is what makes Kiptum so good and it's so, so, so damn obvious.
Plenty of athletes use EPO or have used it, yet this athlete is more than 40 seconds faster than the next guy is who over 30 seconds faster than the next. So there is something besides drug use. Likely talent, youth, durability and mileage. Perhaps aided by drug use, but again he would not be alone in using.
So many paragraphs attempting to argue he is wrong about you. He isn't. You have proved how clueless you are about doping - again and again. He really hit home.
It was a swing and a miss. Strike one.
Without bases, these remain baseless opinions, from both you and him. It cannot be right until it is instantiated by identifying information or knowledge which I didn't yet have. Neither you nor he were able to do that.
We don't have to. You don't understand. You do it for us.
3 letters is what makes Kiptum so good and it's so, so, so damn obvious.
Plenty of athletes use EPO or have used it, yet this athlete is more than 40 seconds faster than the next guy is who over 30 seconds faster than the next. So there is something besides drug use. Likely talent, youth, durability and mileage. Perhaps aided by drug use, but again he would not be alone in using.
Doping doesn't make everyone equal, even if it makes everyone faster.
For some reason, I was actually thinking of men's marathon record holders, so that was my mistake. I did already offer a self-correction later, adding some women's names.
I never did get a response to the question why keep using the examples of sprinters Johnson, Jones, and Johnson, when there is this large pool of Kenyans, including all these "busted marathon champions".
Because doping works in all sports and all events and some dopers became notorious but few have heard of a bunch of "here-today-gone-tomorrow" Kenyans. But at least your Google search show they exist - and in numbers.
Without bases, these remain baseless opinions, from both you and him. It cannot be right until it is instantiated by identifying information or knowledge which I didn't yet have. Neither you nor he were able to do that.
We don't have to. You don't understand. You do it for us.
Sure I understand. You don't have to, and it remains baseless.
Plenty of athletes use EPO or have used it, yet this athlete is more than 40 seconds faster than the next guy is who over 30 seconds faster than the next. So there is something besides drug use. Likely talent, youth, durability and mileage. Perhaps aided by drug use, but again he would not be alone in using.
Not sure how you can still write "perhaps aided by drug use", perhaps? Really? To be the best of the best, literally in this case, you have to have the best combination of drugs + talent + training. I highly doubt that a newbie like him, originally self-coached, had superior training compared to Kipchoge et al. Is he more talented? Maybe, but how much more talented can one be? That much more talented to beat all the talented dopers with their established coaches while clean? No way. That would also mean that - if doped - he could have run 1:58 - 1:55, depending on which expert you'd want to believe. Somewhat ridiculous, considering that not even the most hard core doper has run under 2:01.
He has to be doping, and well responding to it, to stand out of this mass of talented, well trained dopers.
Because doping works in all sports and all events and some dopers became notorious but few have heard of a bunch of "here-today-gone-tomorrow" Kenyans. But at least your Google search show they exist - and in numbers.
Those aren't really reasons, but just myths compounded with fallacies. I think the main reason is that your specific knowledge is scarce -- you know about a few runners in the '60s and '70s, and you know a few famous names caught doping, but also scarce on the details. That's why you dwell so much in the past -- you don't really know much about what has happened since the 1980s, because your faith in the power of doping has blinded you and reduced you to a windbag of baseless allegations and one-liner insults.
I have no doubts sprinters took steroids, and that steroids might have worked well for the women, although FloJo was never officially implicated, despite many allegations from those who don't really know anything.
As a reminder, we are here in a thread about Kiptum in the marathon, also not implicated with doping, and there really is no link between sprints and the marathon.
Not sure how you can still write "perhaps aided by drug use", perhaps? Really? To be the best of the best, literally in this case, you have to have the best combination of drugs + talent + training. I highly doubt that a newbie like him, originally self-coached, had superior training compared to Kipchoge et al. Is he more talented? Maybe, but how much more talented can one be? That much more talented to beat all the talented dopers with their established coaches while clean? No way. That would also mean that - if doped - he could have run 1:58 - 1:55, depending on which expert you'd want to believe. Somewhat ridiculous, considering that not even the most hard core doper has run under 2:01.
He has to be doping, and well responding to it, to stand out of this mass of talented, well trained dopers.
Eliud Kipchoge is by now an old man who moved up to the marathon after his track career was declining more than a decade ago. He is phenomenal at the marathon and has years of accumulated training, but let’s also note a quite washed-up Kenenisa Bekele approached his time too. We’ve been waiting for any of these guys who can smash 59 in the half to convert well to the marathon. Finally we have one after a series of misfires. I agree there could be doping but I don’t know and do know that the guy is the best regardless.
I have no doubts sprinters took steroids, and that steroids might have worked well for the women, although FloJo was never officially implicated, despite many allegations from those who don't really know anything.
Just yesterday, a 2:02 marathoner was banned for doping with steroids and opioids and tampering. So there is also no doubt that male marathoners took and take steroids.
I have no doubts sprinters took steroids, and that steroids might have worked well for the women, although FloJo was never officially implicated, despite many allegations from those who don't really know anything.
Just yesterday, a 2:02 marathoner was banned for doping with steroids and opioids and tampering. So there is also no doubt that male marathoners took and take steroids.
Just the same, Armstronglivs gave us the name of three sprinters, two of which were busted for steroids, and one who was not, in a thread about a Kenyan marathoner, not busted for doping. Just seems odd that he cannot give relevant examples on a topic he talks so much about.
I guess you mean a 2:02:57 marathoner. Triamcinolone Acetonide is a cortico-steroid -- apparently an anti-inflammatory. I don't find "use" particularly all that important, per se, when the question being asked is about alleged performance benefits. Is there any expert who estimates the performance benefit for the marathon of an anti-inflammatory and a pain-killer? Triamcinolone acetonide has been around since 1958 and pethidine since 1938.
You said above "depending on which expert you want to believe". The only expert I am aware of with real experience training elite athletes of this caliber, who has also offered an opinion about a potential benefit for top athletes who train at altitude, is Canova. Is there any other candidate expert on elite performance who has offered an estimate?
I didn't talk about training experts like Canova (with allegedly no experience in doping but a huge conflict of interest), but doping experts (although Salazar doubles as training and doping expert, and he is on record stating that doping gives you 2 minutes in the marathon).
And I didn't talk about steroids and opioids but about doping in general, as we don't know what Kiptum is taking.
Why do you try to downplay the use of corticosteroids? After all, they were part of Lance Armstrong's professionally optimized doping arsenal.
Just the same, Armstronglivs gave us the name of three sprinters, two of which were busted for steroids, and one who was not, in a thread about a Kenyan marathoner, not busted for doping. Just seems odd that he cannot give relevant examples on a topic he talks so much about.
How is it odd? That's the entirety, the only game plan available. They know they'll get a few names per year. They use that to assign to everyone. It's never going to be the names they want. But since they have this little closet on the internet full of fellow cynics they know they can hang out here all year every year and get away with the same slop. It doesn't require actually knowing anything. They anticipate these few examples every year in which everyone avalanches toward their side. Rodents are briefly king.
In their bubblewrap brains track and field is the only endeavor on the entire planet in which no one is legitimately exceptional.
I wouldn’t say I typically adopt your worldview but the triamcinolone - we can definitively say Kiptum is not taking it on race day. It is detectable and he’d get popped for it. You’d have to be an absolute buffoon to take it at this juncture. On days ahead of your race you might as well take it but it would seem to not have a long term benefit. There is an element in Kenya probably black market where they are smuggling the stuff in and giving to gullible/dumb athletes especially for raceday. Wonder if we are past it though because it seems after a rash of busts for it, it is off the radar.
I didn't talk about training experts like Canova (with allegedly no experience in doping but a huge conflict of interest), but doping experts (although Salazar doubles as training and doping expert, and he is on record stating that doping gives you 2 minutes in the marathon).
And I didn't talk about steroids and opioids but about doping in general, as we don't know what Kiptum is taking.
Why do you try to downplay the use of corticosteroids? After all, they were part of Lance Armstrong's professionally optimized doping arsenal.
It doesn't matter what you talked about -- you left the choice up to us as to "who we'd want to believe".
Why would you go to a doping expert without elite performance expertise, to ask an opinion about elite performance? Without the relevant experience with elite performance, they would be false authorities, offering non-expert opinions about something outside of their domain of expertise.
We don't even know if Kiptum is taking anything.
What am I downplaying? Before going downplaying or overstating, don't we need an established starting point? I asked what is the expert expectation of performance benefit for a steroid anti-inflammatory? Armstrong's expert was Dr. Ferrari. Does he say what expected performance benefits were? Did it make Armstrong's marathon time faster? There are several dozens of studies looking at blood doping and EPO, for any potential benefit for endurance events. Are there studies, or other formal or informal references, that looks at corticosteroids, or at opiod painkillers, with respect to marathon performance?