Not that anybody needs more context for how great Washington's depth is, but I calculated a list of the historical top four-person mile squads by adding each team's four fastest performers in a season.
In this race alone, Washington's top four of Waskom, Fay, Green, and Lumb became the fastest four-person team in NCAA history, narrowly beating Oregon's 2020-21 team with Teare and Hocker 3:50, Hunter 3:53, and Brown 3:56. But behind them, Washington's "B" team of Ellis, Houser, Ahl, and Ryan would rank #7 all-time. Pretty insane that this was all done in the same race, and some of these athletes will likely go even faster later this season.
Top-10 list below for anyone interested (includes altitude and flat track conversions):
1. 2023 Washington 'A': 15:30.52 (3:51.90, 3:52.03, 3:52.76, 3:53.83)
It's not the shoes, these guys are just old as fukk. The average age of these geezers is like 23 with most guys on their 5th or 6th years of eligibility.
Cool, if it’s not the shoes then why run in them? Because it’s the shoes. It’s the reason HS kids” parents are shelling out $200 for nylon and foam. Absolute circus.
Because you can run more workouts in them while putting less wear and tear on your legs. They're more comfortable, not necessarily faster. I don't think reducing injury risk is necessarily a bad thing for the sport.
Waskom backs up his NCAA championship with a 3:51. Fay just a tick behind. Nathan Green goes 3:52.
what a race.
Gonna end up taking 3:54 or faster just to make NCAAs. Crazy that the NCAA record was 3:55 until fairly recently.
And some people still don’t think the shoes give you 3-5 seconds a mile. This race is amazing evidence you get 3-5 seconds a mile. Complete no names are smashing recent NCAA records held by Olympic finalists. I’m not trying to take anything away from the times because I think improving technology is important and the shoes are great to use to reach optimal race times, but it’s impossible to make any logical argument against the evidence.
Cool, if it’s not the shoes then why run in them? Because it’s the shoes. It’s the reason HS kids” parents are shelling out $200 for nylon and foam. Absolute circus.
Because you can run more workouts in them while putting less wear and tear on your legs. They're more comfortable, not necessarily faster. I don't think reducing injury risk is necessarily a bad thing for the sport.
It is different, but doping reduces injury too. It is why people dope in training and get clean for race. The shoes ,however. ARE effective on race day and legal. That is why people race in them EXCLUSIVELY. See if you can convince any competitor to race in old style shoes once they have used super shoes. Many will deny they work, but be unwilling to use older styles.
Gonna end up taking 3:54 or faster just to make NCAAs. Crazy that the NCAA record was 3:55 until fairly recently.
And some people still don’t think the shoes give you 3-5 seconds a mile. This race is amazing evidence you get 3-5 seconds a mile. Complete no names are smashing recent NCAA records held by Olympic finalists. I’m not trying to take anything away from the times because I think improving technology is important and the shoes are great to use to reach optimal race times, but it’s impossible to make any logical argument against the evidence.
As a devil's advocate, it would help your case if any of the following records were post-2019 shoe tech (outdoor records only, as indoor tracks and meets have proliferated massively in recent times, so not a level field):
W800, W1500, W3000;
M800, M1500, M3000.
NONE of these records have even been brushed against (except the W1500), much less broken or shattered, which is what we would expect with 3-5 sec/mile.
Also, as an aside, the U.S. high school records for 400m-2M are also very resistant to any widespread assault despite heavy influx of sub-4 performers and their equivalents.
Until these records start toppling, the case is against the shoe benefits in the MD events at the top level. That said, I will continue to wear the current tech shoes, as they reduce the wear on my battered old body.
And some people still don’t think the shoes give you 3-5 seconds a mile. This race is amazing evidence you get 3-5 seconds a mile. Complete no names are smashing recent NCAA records held by Olympic finalists. I’m not trying to take anything away from the times because I think improving technology is important and the shoes are great to use to reach optimal race times, but it’s impossible to make any logical argument against the evidence.
As a devil's advocate, it would help your case if any of the following records were post-2019 shoe tech (outdoor records only, as indoor tracks and meets have proliferated massively in recent times, so not a level field):
W800, W1500, W3000;
M800, M1500, M3000.
NONE of these records have even been brushed against (except the W1500), much less broken or shattered, which is what we would expect with 3-5 sec/mile.
Also, as an aside, the U.S. high school records for 400m-2M are also very resistant to any widespread assault despite heavy influx of sub-4 performers and their equivalents.
Until these records start toppling, the case is against the shoe benefits in the MD events at the top level. That said, I will continue to wear the current tech shoes, as they reduce the wear on my battered old body.
Records are often the wild outlier. Look at the top 10 from each year for HS, college, pro for a better picture. Times changed in 2020, literally and figuratively.
Webb was the fastest US miler in 2001, not just HS. From 1964-2017, 10 high schoolers broke 4. From 2020 (year of new shoes) to now, another 7 which will likely be 10+ by the end 2023. That is unusual stastically say the least.
I posted some NCAA indoor data for 10 years that shows a clear inflection point at 2020. Mile got 3s faster, 3k 10s faster, 5k 15s faster. Shoes may not be the only factor, but they are a significant one.
And some people still don’t think the shoes give you 3-5 seconds a mile. This race is amazing evidence you get 3-5 seconds a mile. Complete no names are smashing recent NCAA records held by Olympic finalists. I’m not trying to take anything away from the times because I think improving technology is important and the shoes are great to use to reach optimal race times, but it’s impossible to make any logical argument against the evidence.
As a devil's advocate, it would help your case if any of the following records were post-2019 shoe tech (outdoor records only, as indoor tracks and meets have proliferated massively in recent times, so not a level field):
W800, W1500, W3000;
M800, M1500, M3000.
NONE of these records have even been brushed against (except the W1500), much less broken or shattered, which is what we would expect with 3-5 sec/mile.
Also, as an aside, the U.S. high school records for 400m-2M are also very resistant to any widespread assault despite heavy influx of sub-4 performers and their equivalents.
Until these records start toppling, the case is against the shoe benefits in the MD events at the top level. That said, I will continue to wear the current tech shoes, as they reduce the wear on my battered old body.
Let's say the super shoes are worth 1s/lap. How many pre supershow woman came within 8s of the Wangs record that weren't Chinese in the 25 years after(or before for that matter)? 0. How many 3:54 woman were there pre2:19 ?
Same thing on the men's side. There are 5 dudes every sub 3:28. What are the odds of one of them being active the past couple years?
Those super fast runners are rare. They show up when they show up. Back a couple notches and you have enough people going from 3:40 to 3:37 to talk about trends...
And some people still don’t think the shoes give you 3-5 seconds a mile. This race is amazing evidence you get 3-5 seconds a mile. Complete no names are smashing recent NCAA records held by Olympic finalists. I’m not trying to take anything away from the times because I think improving technology is important and the shoes are great to use to reach optimal race times, but it’s impossible to make any logical argument against the evidence.
As a devil's advocate, it would help your case if any of the following records were post-2019 shoe tech (outdoor records only, as indoor tracks and meets have proliferated massively in recent times, so not a level field):
W800, W1500, W3000;
M800, M1500, M3000.
NONE of these records have even been brushed against (except the W1500), much less broken or shattered, which is what we would expect with 3-5 sec/mile.
Also, as an aside, the U.S. high school records for 400m-2M are also very resistant to any widespread assault despite heavy influx of sub-4 performers and their equivalents.
Until these records start toppling, the case is against the shoe benefits in the MD events at the top level. That said, I will continue to wear the current tech shoes, as they reduce the wear on my battered old body.
Legends that never ran sub 3:52 indoors:
Peter Elliott
Rui Silva
Frank O’Mara
Sydney Maree
Silas Kiplagat
Mehdi Baala
John Walker
Laban Rotich
Noah Ngeny
Jens-Peter Herold
and it’s just barely slower than Morceli and Centrowitz.
A lot from the list today wouldn’t have cracked the top 3 - lol! Yep, that’s right, Ngeny’s all-time indoor mile pr would have barely placed top 5.
Want proof? Make them illegal for racing and you’ll see grown men literally crying. Not to mention shoe execs. If there’s no serious advantage why wear them?
We have yet to see: Essayi from SC, Pampayas from G'town, Davis Bowe, Vannopen from WF and maybe some of those freshmen who broke 4 last year like Gary Martin or Peters from UVA might break through, but I have trouble believing the cutoff will be below 3:56.
I think Ryan Schoppe would actually do better in the 3K anyway and Faoud Massoui will probably be better suited to the 3K as well?
Because you can run more workouts in them while putting less wear and tear on your legs. They're more comfortable, not necessarily faster. I don't think reducing injury risk is necessarily a bad thing for the sport.
It is different, but doping reduces injury too. It is why people dope in training and get clean for race. The shoes ,however. ARE effective on race day and legal. That is why people race in them EXCLUSIVELY. See if you can convince any competitor to race in old style shoes once they have used super shoes. Many will deny they work, but be unwilling to use older styles.
They're also just the current model out, and most people are going to wear the newest thing. Finding old spikes is a pain in the @ss unless you wear like size 15's, so there's that as well. The price has come down since they were first released so there's really no reason not to unless you're morally opposed because you bought into the "cheater shoe" hype.
As a devil's advocate, it would help your case if any of the following records were post-2019 shoe tech (outdoor records only, as indoor tracks and meets have proliferated massively in recent times, so not a level field):
W800, W1500, W3000;
M800, M1500, M3000.
NONE of these records have even been brushed against (except the W1500), much less broken or shattered, which is what we would expect with 3-5 sec/mile.
Also, as an aside, the U.S. high school records for 400m-2M are also very resistant to any widespread assault despite heavy influx of sub-4 performers and their equivalents.
Until these records start toppling, the case is against the shoe benefits in the MD events at the top level. That said, I will continue to wear the current tech shoes, as they reduce the wear on my battered old body.
Records are often the wild outlier. Look at the top 10 from each year for HS, college, pro for a better picture. Times changed in 2020, literally and figuratively.
Webb was the fastest US miler in 2001, not just HS. From 1964-2017, 10 high schoolers broke 4. From 2020 (year of new shoes) to now, another 7 which will likely be 10+ by the end 2023. That is unusual stastically say the least.
I posted some NCAA indoor data for 10 years that shows a clear inflection point at 2020. Mile got 3s faster, 3k 10s faster, 5k 15s faster. Shoes may not be the only factor, but they are a significant one.
Not top 10 for pros in M1500 or 5k. Top 10-15 have remained the same. This has been studied.
And again, your argument has to work both ways. If the shoes are worth, 1s per lap.. Webb is a 3:49 dude in HS, Tim C ran 3:24 in 2018, Komen ran 7:12, etc.
So, my challenge to you — pick a time that you are comfortable with as an adjustment. And then let’s adjust all the previous times down to see how that shakes out.
Gonna end up taking 3:54 or faster just to make NCAAs. Crazy that the NCAA record was 3:55 until fairly recently.
And some people still don’t think the shoes give you 3-5 seconds a mile. This race is amazing evidence you get 3-5 seconds a mile. Complete no names are smashing recent NCAA records held by Olympic finalists. I’m not trying to take anything away from the times because I think improving technology is important and the shoes are great to use to reach optimal race times, but it’s impossible to make any logical argument against the evidence.
if they give you 3-5 sceonds a mile, then that means El G runs a sub 3:40 and Komen runs a 7:50 2 miles.
Insane race. I thought a sub 4 would happen but Nick Foster still won with a US #1 time. Who the hell fell with 600 to go. I only saw Payamps and Affolder go down. Unfortunate.
Insane race. I thought a sub 4 would happen but Nick Foster still won with a US #1 time. Who the hell fell with 600 to go. I only saw Payamps and Affolder go down. Unfortunate.
And some people still don’t think the shoes give you 3-5 seconds a mile. This race is amazing evidence you get 3-5 seconds a mile. Complete no names are smashing recent NCAA records held by Olympic finalists. I’m not trying to take anything away from the times because I think improving technology is important and the shoes are great to use to reach optimal race times, but it’s impossible to make any logical argument against the evidence.
if they give you 3-5 sceonds a mile, then that means El G runs a sub 3:40 and Komen runs a 7:50 2 miles.
sorry its just not true..
Bruh, a bunch of nobodies just ran within 3-4 seconds of El Gs all-time indoor best at the height of epo! The 3:51.90 is top 21 ALL-TIME! Just barely behind Scott and only a second back of Morceli.
And some people still don’t think the shoes give you 3-5 seconds a mile. This race is amazing evidence you get 3-5 seconds a mile. Complete no names are smashing recent NCAA records held by Olympic finalists. I’m not trying to take anything away from the times because I think improving technology is important and the shoes are great to use to reach optimal race times, but it’s impossible to make any logical argument against the evidence.
if they give you 3-5 sceonds a mile, then that means El G runs a sub 3:40 and Komen runs a 7:50 2 miles.
sorry its just not true..
An effective EPO test was not available until approximately 2004. Times stagnated after that. No one has come close to El G, Ngeny, Komen, Chinese, etc. times since then. Even the 5k/10k WRs didn't move... until the shoes.
Microdosing is not as effective as full doping, but still likely as effective as shoe technology. Doping is not as prevalent at HS and College competition as it is among pros (where it is nearly ubiquitous). That is probably why the effect of shoes seems stronger in amateur competition. However, there have still been many records and faster times with new shoes.
There was a clear change in race times when EPO was introduced. There was a clear slowing after an effective test. There has been another resurgenge with new shoes. It is not wrong or illegal, but a 3:5x mile now is not equal to a pre super shoe 3:5x.
Shelby H ran 14:24 in old spikes, just sayin… Woyld she run faster in new spikes probably not. If you’ve ran in the new spikes then you know they don’t make a difference.