Agree. I am a woman. If you are a coach, you need to understand the physiology of the people you are coaching. If you coach women, you must understand some basics of female physiology, and how it differs from men ("the default"). I think it's a cop out disguised as feminism to suggest that male coaches shouldn't discuss issues related to female physiology.
It is often assumed that women have some inherent wisdom about female physiology. This is not correct. I know my experience of being a woman, but that is very different from understanding the science behind it. I was not born with magic voodoo woman wisdom. I learned about female physiology from textbooks and scientific articles. Male coaches can do this as well. Even doing 10 minutes of reading on Wikipedia would be massive for a lot of folks.
I appreciate any male coach who has taken the effort to educate themselves on the physiology of female athletes. Coaches are not doctors, and aren't expected to be all-knowing. They should however know enough to spot a problem and refer you to one. This is similar to injury issues... a coach is not a physiotherapist, but does need to know enough about running injuries to give good advice in their domain.
When you are coaching, medical stuff is going to come up because it impacts an athlete's ability to train and race. Sometimes as a coach, you'll be the first person they trust with it. You need to be able to give them the right advice. Often that advice is "go see a doctor." If you don't know what things could be serious problems, you may not give that advice.
I agree with all you’ve said. i would add another reason for male (and females) to learn more about the menstrual cycle is you can use it to maximize training. Since I started sharing my cycle info with my coach we’ve been able to better plan my training so my harder training weeks align with certain parts of my cycle. I’m getting better results, fewer injuries and less frustration. I will never again work with a coach that’s doesn’t understand women aren’t just a slower versions of men. Where it gets a little more complex is every woman is different. For some, menstrual cycles have no impact; for others, it’s more significant.
“For some, menstrual cycles have no impact; for others, it’s more significant.”
Yeah, this is the hard part about researching and attempting to understand cycles. Most of the recent consensus says that there’s not a ton of correlation between menstrual cycles and athletic performance. However, there’s consensus that there’s a ton of variation. So you can’t just read a book and be like “oh, you’re on day 2 of your period, we’re going to have a rest day and do our hardest workout 3 days after your period ends”. That could be beneficial for some, make no difference for many, and be detrimental for a few. So you really just have to talk with each athlete and honestly rely on subjective feedback.
But how much do coaches actually change things anyways? It’s not really practical despite our best intentions. For instance, say the team has 6x Mile and an athlete only gets 4 hours of sleep and they’ve been stressed about something. Ideally, that athlete would do the hard workout a different day. But especially in cross country, you don’t have 15 individual schedules. Instead the whole team works out together. Sometimes exceptions are made, but usually everyone works out together. I would say there’s literally never a time when all 15-20 athletes are 100% ready for a hard workout. But I bet there’s been a time in every program where everyone worked out hard on the same day. (Of course if you know an athlete is dealing with something, you likely alter the workout to keep the stress appropriate for what they can handle- but you get the point I’m making that you’re not changing up the whole schedule when someone isn’t in optimal conditions. If you’re coaching someone individually, then obviously it’s different.)
Agree. I am a woman. If you are a coach, you need to understand the physiology of the people you are coaching. If you coach women, you must understand some basics of female physiology, and how it differs from men ("the default"). I think it's a cop out disguised as feminism to suggest that male coaches shouldn't discuss issues related to female physiology.
It is often assumed that women have some inherent wisdom about female physiology. This is not correct. I know my experience of being a woman, but that is very different from understanding the science behind it. I was not born with magic voodoo woman wisdom. I learned about female physiology from textbooks and scientific articles. Male coaches can do this as well. Even doing 10 minutes of reading on Wikipedia would be massive for a lot of folks.
I appreciate any male coach who has taken the effort to educate themselves on the physiology of female athletes. Coaches are not doctors, and aren't expected to be all-knowing. They should however know enough to spot a problem and refer you to one. This is similar to injury issues... a coach is not a physiotherapist, but does need to know enough about running injuries to give good advice in their domain.
When you are coaching, medical stuff is going to come up because it impacts an athlete's ability to train and race. Sometimes as a coach, you'll be the first person they trust with it. You need to be able to give them the right advice. Often that advice is "go see a doctor." If you don't know what things could be serious problems, you may not give that advice.
I agree with all you’ve said. i would add another reason for male (and females) to learn more about the menstrual cycle is you can use it to maximize training. Since I started sharing my cycle info with my coach we’ve been able to better plan my training so my harder training weeks align with certain parts of my cycle. I’m getting better results, fewer injuries and less frustration. I will never again work with a coach that’s doesn’t understand women aren’t just a slower versions of men. Where it gets a little more complex is every woman is different. For some, menstrual cycles have no impact; for others, it’s more significant.
“plan my training so my harder training weeks align with certain parts of my cycle”
I’m not female. I’m not a coach either. Just curious - are you able / willing to share what training tweaks you made to align with certain parts of your cycle? Were the tweaks based on medical / physiology or was it more of a trial and error approach?
I’m sure I’m responding to trolls at this point but I worked with two ncaa 1 coaches who attained podium level titles on an individual & team level but were willing to sacrifice their runners’ health with the assumption that enough players would make it through the season to podium. One coach was a victim of the system herself & didn’t know any better and the other coach (male) would approach my parents and tell them to tell me to lose weight so I could make all American and earn more scholarship money. And then my parents would tell me what the coach said to them bc they couldn’t afford the college tuition & were afraid I’d lose my scholarship. 18 year olds don’t just flick a switch at hs graduation & become independent adults with good judgment, especially when the adults in their lives don’t model it. I documented my story in an e book called She Was Once a Runner
I agree with all you’ve said. i would add another reason for male (and females) to learn more about the menstrual cycle is you can use it to maximize training. Since I started sharing my cycle info with my coach we’ve been able to better plan my training so my harder training weeks align with certain parts of my cycle. I’m getting better results, fewer injuries and less frustration. I will never again work with a coach that’s doesn’t understand women aren’t just a slower versions of men. Where it gets a little more complex is every woman is different. For some, menstrual cycles have no impact; for others, it’s more significant.
“For some, menstrual cycles have no impact; for others, it’s more significant.”
Yeah, this is the hard part about researching and attempting to understand cycles. Most of the recent consensus says that there’s not a ton of correlation between menstrual cycles and athletic performance. However, there’s consensus that there’s a ton of variation. So you can’t just read a book and be like “oh, you’re on day 2 of your period, we’re going to have a rest day and do our hardest workout 3 days after your period ends”. That could be beneficial for some, make no difference for many, and be detrimental for a few. So you really just have to talk with each athlete and honestly rely on subjective feedback.
Just to be clear: The term "menstrual cycle" doesn't refer just to the days a woman or girl has her period the way your post and some other posts on this thread seem to suggest.
Menstrual cycle is the colloquial shorthand term for the entire sequence of significant hormonal and physical changes that occur in the human female body related to ovulation, preparation for potential fertilization/conception, and menstruation over the course of every 4 weeks on average.
Often referred to as a monthly cycle, the average menstrual cycle is 28 days - though cycles can be short as short as 21 days and as long as 35+ days and still be considered in the normal range. Most girls and women have an average of 13 cycles a year.
Whilst all hormones in humans are in a dynamic state, the fluctuations of the four hormones involved in the female menstruation-ovulation cycle - follicle stimulating hormone, luteinizing hormone, estrogen and progesterone - over the different phases of the 28-day-long cycle are the most dramatic, complex and intricate changes created by all the 50 or so different human hormones known so far.
Each individual's personal hormone fluctuations during her cycle shape her own unique experience in terms of physical and mental wellbeing. Some women are very affected and aware of the impact of our changing hormones over the cycle, others far less so.
But because there are exquisitely sensitive hormone receptors in the brain and throughout the body beyond the female reproductive organs, changes in female hormones over the course of the typical cycle have been demonstrated to be able to have profound affects on all aspects of our being. They can and do affect mood, sleep patterns, energy levels, feelings of fatigue, motivation, appetite, food cravings, digestion, metabolism, water retention, nasal congestion, allergies, joint stability and aches, skin and hair secretions, body odor, skin senstitivy and tendency to irritation, immune function, vulnerability to injury, sex drive, ability to climax, feelings of overall wellbeing and so on.
Taken all together, the hormonal changes that girls and women are constantly going through over the course of their 4-week (on average) cycles during our reproductive years can have major impacts on girls' and women's quality of life - and on our ability to train and compete in sports.
All these changes and impacts over the whole cycle need to be taken into account when coaching and coming up with training programs, schedules, performance expectations, dietary regimens, weight standards, etc for young female athletes - not just what happens during the 4-7 days of our cycles when we are contending with the bleeding and clotting of periods - and all the rest of inconveniences and unpleasantries that often come with them, such as uterine cramping, pelvic pain, backache, flank pain, headaches, anemia, bloating, GI tract distress, breast tenderness, embarrassing leaks and feelings of acute self-consciousness and sometimes shame.
This post was edited 14 minutes after it was posted.
Reason provided:
Added word
“For some, menstrual cycles have no impact; for others, it’s more significant.”
Yeah, this is the hard part about researching and attempting to understand cycles. Most of the recent consensus says that there’s not a ton of correlation between menstrual cycles and athletic performance. However, there’s consensus that there’s a ton of variation. So you can’t just read a book and be like “oh, you’re on day 2 of your period, we’re going to have a rest day and do our hardest workout 3 days after your period ends”. That could be beneficial for some, make no difference for many, and be detrimental for a few. So you really just have to talk with each athlete and honestly rely on subjective feedback.
Just to be clear: The term "menstrual cycle" doesn't refer just to the days a woman or girl has her period the way your post and some other posts on this thread seem to suggest.
Menstrual cycle is the colloquial shorthand term for the entire sequence of significant hormonal and physical changes that occur in the human female body related to ovulation, preparation for potential fertilization/conception, and menstruation over the course of every 4 weeks on average.
Often referred to as a monthly cycle, the average menstrual cycle is 28 days - though cycles can be short as short as 21 days and as long as 35+ days and still be considered in the normal range. Most girls and women have an average of 13 cycles a year.
Whilst all hormones in humans are in a dynamic state, the fluctuations of the four hormones involved in the female menstruation-ovulation cycle - follicle stimulating hormone, luteinizing hormone, estrogen and progesterone - over the different phases of the 28-day-long cycle are the most dramatic, complex and intricate changes created by all the 50 or so different human hormones known so far.
Each individual's personal hormone fluctuations during her cycle shape her own unique experience in terms of physical and mental wellbeing. Some women are very affected and aware of the impact of our changing hormones over the cycle, others far less so.
But because there are exquisitely sensitive hormone receptors in the brain and throughout the body beyond the female reproductive organs, changes in female hormones over the course of the typical cycle have been demonstrated to be able to have profound affects on all aspects of our being. They can and do affect mood, sleep patterns, energy levels, feelings of fatigue, motivation, appetite, food cravings, digestion, metabolism, water retention, nasal congestion, allergies, joint stability and aches, skin and hair secretions, body odor, skin senstitivy and tendency to irritation, immune function, vulnerability to injury, sex drive, ability to climax, feelings of overall wellbeing and so on.
Taken all together, the hormonal changes that girls and women are constantly going through over the course of their 4-week (on average) cycles during our reproductive years can have major impacts on girls' and women's quality of life - and on our ability to train and compete in sports.
All these changes and impacts over the whole cycle need to be taken into account when coaching and coming up with training programs, schedules, performance expectations, dietary regimens, weight standards, etc for young female athletes - not just what happens during the 4-7 days of our cycles when we are contending with the bleeding and clotting of periods - and all the rest of inconveniences and unpleasantries that often come with them, such as uterine cramping, pelvic pain, backache, flank pain, headaches, anemia, bloating, GI tract distress, breast tenderness, embarrassing leaks and feelings of acute self-consciousness and sometimes shame.
I agree with all that (and I know what the menstrual cycle is), but my point was that research regarding the entire menstrual cycle in relation to training and athletic performance isn’t conclusive. Again, the only consensus is there’s a huge degree of variability between individuals (which you seem to agree with). There is no clear scientific consensus that says how to train most effectively throughout a menstrual cycle with fluctuating hormones. Even if we could theoretically test your progesterone and estrogen levels every day, along with your HRV, Heart rate and other metrics, there still isn’t great consensus on what is best for training. (Generally, if your resting HR is significantly high and HRV is lower, maybe don’t try to crush a workout, but you have to train at some point). And even if there was some consensus, how can you practically manage that with 15-20 women? Let’s say theoretically Whoop scientists somehow discovered how the fluctuations of hormones impacts how an individual adapts to specific training stimuli. (And it uses HRV and other metrics and fitness performance changes over time to somehow track how “effective” the workouts were so the data is also individualized to the athlete). Then on each day, it gives an accurate readiness score for different methods of training “threshold work” “anaerobic work” CNS heavy work like heavy lifting and sprints” etc. 100 being you get the best stimulus. (Devices like OmegaWave do this actually- probably much more accurate than Whoop- but still idk exactly how useful the tool is- worth looking into though). Anyways, say you had perfectly accurate readiness scores, as a coach, what do you do when all 15 women have different scores and a hormonal profile to respond better to a different type a workout? The more anyone coaches, I think the more they realize that the psychological aspect of training-especially with a team- is incredibly important- but impossible to quantify. So a certain workout on a certain day may not be the theoretical best for a particular athlete- but throughout 4-5 years in a program, athletes collectively working out together with good team culture (with just the right amount of individualization when necessary) likely leads to more success than a theoretical best individual schedule where everyone does their own things based on when they’re “optimized” to work out.
I think a lot of people just casually throw out “we should take these factors into consideration and modify training around it” but there’s probably very very few that actually know how to effectively do that in a team setting. This will sounds cynical, but the ones that appear to know what they’re doing, probably aren’t doing anything special from a physiological perspective. They are probably just letting the athletes talk, making the athletes feel heard, and slightly changing things to make the athletes feel more comfortable and confident about when and what they’re doing. There’s so much psychology- the perception that you’re doing the “right thing for your body” is powerful and likely leads to better results. Obviously, there is an underlying real physiological component- it’s just incredibly complex and I’m honestly skeptical of anyone who says they’ve “figured it out”. With that said, there are some obvious times where you just feel absolutely terrible and can’t hit any splits- so just do the workout a different day. And some people will have very obvious repeat symptoms that you figure out and can manage.
Here in America people have to self-promote and hustle; nobody gives it to you. Men do this and women do this. But part of the sexism on this board is reflected in the fact that people hate it when Betsy Andreu, Kara Goucher, Mary Cain, or Lauren Fleshman do it but don't seem to mind when men do it.
Nailed it. A woman definitely gets a different response when they voice a strong opinion.
Once you're an adult it has nothing to do with peer pressure or anything like that because an adult makes decisions without factoring in peer pressure.
Just to be clear: The term "menstrual cycle" doesn't refer just to the days a woman or girl has her period the way your post and some other posts on this thread seem to suggest.
Menstrual cycle is the colloquial shorthand term for the entire sequence of significant hormonal and physical changes that occur in the human female body related to ovulation, preparation for potential fertilization/conception, and menstruation over the course of every 4 weeks on average.
Often referred to as a monthly cycle, the average menstrual cycle is 28 days - though cycles can be short as short as 21 days and as long as 35+ days and still be considered in the normal range. Most girls and women have an average of 13 cycles a year.
Whilst all hormones in humans are in a dynamic state, the fluctuations of the four hormones involved in the female menstruation-ovulation cycle - follicle stimulating hormone, luteinizing hormone, estrogen and progesterone - over the different phases of the 28-day-long cycle are the most dramatic, complex and intricate changes created by all the 50 or so different human hormones known so far.
Each individual's personal hormone fluctuations during her cycle shape her own unique experience in terms of physical and mental wellbeing. Some women are very affected and aware of the impact of our changing hormones over the cycle, others far less so.
But because there are exquisitely sensitive hormone receptors in the brain and throughout the body beyond the female reproductive organs, changes in female hormones over the course of the typical cycle have been demonstrated to be able to have profound affects on all aspects of our being. They can and do affect mood, sleep patterns, energy levels, feelings of fatigue, motivation, appetite, food cravings, digestion, metabolism, water retention, nasal congestion, allergies, joint stability and aches, skin and hair secretions, body odor, skin senstitivy and tendency to irritation, immune function, vulnerability to injury, sex drive, ability to climax, feelings of overall wellbeing and so on.
Taken all together, the hormonal changes that girls and women are constantly going through over the course of their 4-week (on average) cycles during our reproductive years can have major impacts on girls' and women's quality of life - and on our ability to train and compete in sports.
All these changes and impacts over the whole cycle need to be taken into account when coaching and coming up with training programs, schedules, performance expectations, dietary regimens, weight standards, etc for young female athletes - not just what happens during the 4-7 days of our cycles when we are contending with the bleeding and clotting of periods - and all the rest of inconveniences and unpleasantries that often come with them, such as uterine cramping, pelvic pain, backache, flank pain, headaches, anemia, bloating, GI tract distress, breast tenderness, embarrassing leaks and feelings of acute self-consciousness and sometimes shame.
I agree with all that (and I know what the menstrual cycle is), but my point was that research regarding the entire menstrual cycle in relation to training and athletic performance isn’t conclusive. Again, the only consensus is there’s a huge degree of variability between individuals (which you seem to agree with). There is no clear scientific consensus that says how to train most effectively throughout a menstrual cycle with fluctuating hormones. Even if we could theoretically test your progesterone and estrogen levels every day, along with your HRV, Heart rate and other metrics, there still isn’t great consensus on what is best for training. (Generally, if your resting HR is significantly high and HRV is lower, maybe don’t try to crush a workout, but you have to train at some point). And even if there was some consensus, how can you practically manage that with 15-20 women? Let’s say theoretically Whoop scientists somehow discovered how the fluctuations of hormones impacts how an individual adapts to specific training stimuli. (And it uses HRV and other metrics and fitness performance changes over time to somehow track how “effective” the workouts were so the data is also individualized to the athlete). Then on each day, it gives an accurate readiness score for different methods of training “threshold work” “anaerobic work” CNS heavy work like heavy lifting and sprints” etc. 100 being you get the best stimulus. (Devices like OmegaWave do this actually- probably much more accurate than Whoop- but still idk exactly how useful the tool is- worth looking into though). Anyways, say you had perfectly accurate readiness scores, as a coach, what do you do when all 15 women have different scores and a hormonal profile to respond better to a different type a workout? The more anyone coaches, I think the more they realize that the psychological aspect of training-especially with a team- is incredibly important- but impossible to quantify. So a certain workout on a certain day may not be the theoretical best for a particular athlete- but throughout 4-5 years in a program, athletes collectively working out together with good team culture (with just the right amount of individualization when necessary) likely leads to more success than a theoretical best individual schedule where everyone does their own things based on when they’re “optimized” to work out.
I think a lot of people just casually throw out “we should take these factors into consideration and modify training around it” but there’s probably very very few that actually know how to effectively do that in a team setting. This will sounds cynical, but the ones that appear to know what they’re doing, probably aren’t doing anything special from a physiological perspective. They are probably just letting the athletes talk, making the athletes feel heard, and slightly changing things to make the athletes feel more comfortable and confident about when and what they’re doing. There’s so much psychology- the perception that you’re doing the “right thing for your body” is powerful and likely leads to better results. Obviously, there is an underlying real physiological component- it’s just incredibly complex and I’m honestly skeptical of anyone who says they’ve “figured it out”. With that said, there are some obvious times where you just feel absolutely terrible and can’t hit any splits- so just do the workout a different day. And some people will have very obvious repeat symptoms that you figure out and can manage.
Please don't interpret anything I've said as a suggestion that male coaches should be using - or thinking of using - the sorts of devices, tech, systems and methods you discuss in your first paragraph to test the sex hormone levels of their/your female athletes "every day" - or ever!
The idea of coaches of either sex subjecting their female athletes to invasive testing of their sex hormones - on a daily basis or at any time ever - so they can come up with what you call "accurate readiness scores" to determine how the athletes should be working out - and what should be expected of them - each day/week would be incredibly inappropriate, prying and downright creepy.
I'd even go so far as to say that the sort of sex hormone testing program for female athletes that you've imagined and shared in your first paragraph to be sexual abuse and a gross violation of the female athletes' human rights. In fact, the daily sex hormone testing program for young female athletes you've described in a detail that I found a bit disturbing struck me as entering/bordering on Larry Nassar territory. I don't mean to suggest that's how you actually meant it, just that that's how it came across to me on first reading.
In my post, I simply said that the "changes and impacts [that occur] over the whole [female hormone] cycle need to be taken into account when coaching and coming up with training programs, schedules, performance expectations, dietary regimens, weight standards, etc for young female athletes." It's a far cry from saying that to suggesting that men who coach should start exerting more power, control and dominance over young female athletes by coming up with mad-scientist ways to measure female sex hormones so they can start subjecting the young women and MS and HS girls they coach to invasive and most likely humiliating testing to measure their sex hormones - on a daily basis to boot. (BTW, all this sort of testing would accomplish is insuring that the number of girls who drop out of sports after puberty starts goes up from circa 60% to 100%.)
As your second paragraph indicates you know full well already, there's a world of difference between coaches, sports scientists and other sports professionals taking the realities of female biology into account when designing training programs for female athletes and coaches using the intricacies of female biology as an excuse to take liberties with their female athletes.
BTW, I never said I had all the solutions to the problems under discussion all "figured out" - nor do I think Fleshman has. You're the one giving the impression that there's no or little point in women like Fleshman and me bringing up the shortcomings and flaws in the training and treatment of female athletes in the male-dominated, male-centric world of sports without providing a ready-made, easy-to-follow list of solutions for these problems all ready for implementation so that men who run the show in sports don't have to put in any or much though and work on these matters themselves.
This post was edited 6 minutes after it was posted.
Reason provided:
Added sentence
For the sake of brevity, I'm not going to defend myself or address your first 5 paragraphs. Just accept I'm not a weirdo and I'm not arguing against you lol. I was illustrating how impractical it is to make research-based training changes based on actual physiological (hormonal) data. It's clear you agree with me based on the obvious issues you explained.
My only reasoning for commenting on anything is to move conservations past surface level. Saying "we should take athlete's menstrual cycles into consideration" isn't helpful in any practical way other than starting a conversation. I'm not criticizing anyone (especially Lauren) for starting a conservation but we're on the 6th page of this and this isn't a new brand-new societal topic...decent coaches already think about this stuff.
It's simply a reality that implementing practical training changes *in a team setting* based on individual athlete's menstrual cycles is difficult. We've clearly established you can't use physiological data (hormonal testing, etc) so you mostly have to rely on subjective 'data' from the athlete. But this isn't much different than any other issue an athlete faces. Whether you're feeling exhausted because you have family drama and only got 3 hours of sleep or you just usually feel run-down at a certain time in your cycle- it doesn't really matter. You just assess how your athlete is feeling and maybe we cut the workout short, adjust the times, or move the workout altogether if that's possible. But ultimately, coaches are relying on subjective feedback from the athlete. That feedback may be in regards to the menstrual cycle, but they aren't using scientific physiological data about menstrual cycles, they're just listening to the subjective feedback of their athletes and implementing appropriate changes that can still fit within the team- which is what every half-decent coach should already be doing anyways regarding anything that effects the ability to train and adapt. So in a way, you're correct, I guess I am wondering what the point in these discussions are. When you say "changes and impacts [that occur] over the whole [female hormone] cycle need to be taken into account when coaching and coming up with training programs, schedules, performance expectations, dietary regimens, weight standards, etc for young female athletes" what do you actually suggest that's different than what coaches already do? I'm not being a jerk, I'm genuinely asking, how I am supposed to take this into consideration aside from the subjective feedback regarding how my athletes are feeling that I already assess?
There's a lot of other things regarding female athletes that people just say without digging into the nitty-gritty details (The following is kind of off-topic but related to some of what Lauren mentioned in the article.. I'm also just kinda thinking out-loud but writing it in a forum is a good way to organize my thoughts and spur further personal thought and research for myself... so don't necessarily take my words as talking at you if that makes sense)
Weight- It's just a reality that body weight matters in distance running. And only idiots tell athletes to lose weight without being extremely careful and delicate in their discussions regarding weight and nutrition. But I see so almost zero discussions, articles, coaching seminars, etc on how to specifically coach female athletes on maintaining an optimal weight in a way that is healthy mentally, emotionally, and physically in the long-term. Simply ignoring weight and never bringing it up isn't an answer but that's kinda the tone you tend to get from *some-not all* mainstream articles (admittedly that's what I do because I don't know how to properly navigate it and I don't want to mess it up and cause harm to my athletes or get fired lol). But ideally, if female athletes felt confident they could implement manageable strategies that would help them not only achieve an optimal race weight, but it would help them feel better, healthier, and faster, I'm guessing it would reduce disordered eating. Let's be real, we've all seen athletes who simply weren't at an optimal race weight, they made some healthy, reasonable changes, got to an optimal weight and not only raced better but they had far more confidence in life in general. (And yes, we've also all seen where athletes lose weight in an unhealthy way, maybe have success for a little bit, but later suffer immensely because of it)
Stress fractures- Amenorrhea does lead to more prevalence of stress factures, but there's more to that too. In fact, some research shows even gymnasts with amenorrhea maintain bone density because their sport requires up to 12x bodyweight to be absorbed so all that 'weight-bearing' exercise helps maintain bone density. In addition, Vitamin D, calcium, Vitamin K-2, and magnesium all interact to maintain/increase bone density. How many 15 year old females are educated on the importance of all of these micronutrients as well as heavy lifting and plyometrics ( high weight-bearing activities)? How many coaching seminars have you seen for educating coaches on how to effectively communicate proper nutrition specifically to adolescent females (and to their parents). (All you hear about is iron.) And how much instruction is there for proper weight lifting and plyometric progressions for adolescent female distance runners and convincing them that it's very important for their long-term both health and preventing injuries 7 years later when their mileage is much higher? (You have to be creative and find plyometric progression for jumpers and then do your best to adapt it for distance runners) Instead, people just talk about how coaches suck and have harmful practices for females. Sometimes females may even feel less confident because they read this stuff and think "oh, maybe my coach doesn't really have my best interest in mind and doesn't know how to coach me". Again, these articles are fine to start a conservation, and it's absolutely appropriate and even necessary at times to call out obvious problems, but at the same time, every coach worth a damn already knows this is an issue, so let's progress a little bit and get into some practical tips and changes. (I think I may have answered a question I asked you earlier.. one way coaches can factor a female hormonal cycle into scheduling training is by recognizing there is a particular need females have for obtaining adequate nutrition in certain micronutrients and engaging in weight training and plyometrics. Currently, weight training, especially heavy weights, aren't emphasized as much for young women... how many female freshman distance runners are pumped to go to the weight room and do heavy squats, deadlifts, depth jumps, etc... Probably not a lot, but part of that is they aren't educated about why it's important specifically for them as a young female, and society in general probably doesn't encourage them to be heavy lifters and competent jumpers... so a coach has to do a lot of intentional work in that area.. I'm about to sound so arrogant so I apologize but I've never heard anyone besides me provide a detailed explanation about having coaches intentionally work to engage their young female athletes and get them excited about weight lifting and plyometrics specifically to address the prevalent issue of stress fractures in female distance runners. I'm sure tons of other people say this, but idk, at least in my world, it's not commonly (or ever) discussed.
Periods: I've found that some people assume performance is decreased while a female is on their period. The research actually isn't clear on that. Subjectively- it sucks. I think everyone can be sympathetic that almost all female athletes would prefer to not have, start, or be about to start their period on race days-especially a championship race. But it can be helpful to educate athletes (when appropriate) that even though it absolutely sucks, based on research, they can still perform well. Every female has likely raced on their period but the anxiety usually comes up in championship season for some. Sometimes that assurance they can perform well, especially if they can remember a race (or even workout) they performed well during their period, is pretty powerful psychologically.
*Here's an excerpt from an article that resistance training can specifically help prevent Bone Stress Injuries' in distance runners. This is just one article but there's ton of indirectly related articles on weight lifting and plyometric improving bone density which is at least one factor in stress fractures and stress fracture :
"Overall, these data suggest improving muscular endurance and strength may benefit runners at risk for BSI. Unfortunately, much of the evidence supporting resistance training to reduce BSI risk is retrospective. For example, female military cadets with <7 months of resistance training prior to basic combat training had a 4-fold greater risk of sustaining a BSI than cadets who habitually strength trained [83], and adolescent runners who did not strength train were more likely to sustain a BSI during a cross country season [84]. Lastly, greater bone density is observed in runners and athletes who regularly participate in heavy resistance training compared with those who solely did their sport [85]. "
I don't know how to edit my post. But I saw one of your other posts regarding weight training. If females are frustrated about not gaining muscle mass like males, that's partly an education issue. The goal of weight-lifting for female distance runners isn't to gain muscle. A large part- especially in young females- is to promote good bone density. So that should be emphasized. Improving strength is another goal, but not just for the sake of improving strength, some strength gains gain improve running efficiency (there's like a million studies on this). So a female distance runner should never feel frustrated for not gaining muscle mass because that's an unproductive goal to begin with. There's so much neuromuscular and tissue gains to be made even if you never gain an ounce of muscle mass. There's also tons of beneficial hormonal benefits if the overall training load is optimal. (I'm not even super into weight training even though it probably sounds like it lol, but it has a time and place).
Here in America people have to self-promote and hustle; nobody gives it to you. Men do this and women do this. But part of the sexism on this board is reflected in the fact that people hate it when Betsy Andreu, Kara Goucher, Mary Cain, or Lauren Fleshman do it but don't seem to mind when men do it.
Nailed it. A woman definitely gets a different response when they voice a strong opinion.
I agree, men are cancelled if they voice any opinion. Women are celebrated.
My only reasoning for commenting on anything is to move conservations past surface level. Saying "we should take athlete's menstrual cycles into consideration" isn't helpful in any practical way other than starting a conversation. I'm not criticizing anyone (especially Lauren) for starting a conservation but we're on the 6th page of this and this isn't a new brand-new societal topic...decent coaches already think about this stuff.
It's simply a reality that implementing practical training changes *in a team setting* based on individual athlete's menstrual cycles is difficult.
If this were a specialist forum for coaches who are already extremely well educated about the intricacies of female human biology and their impact on sports to discuss the specifics of training programs for female athletes, then I'd get why you are frustrated that "we're on the 6th page of this" and in your view the convo still hasn't moved "past surface level."
But that's not what the LRC message board is. The LRC MB is a general interest running-related forum where my impression is that most of the posters and readers are not coaches of girls and women like you - and quite a lot of them are are pretty much in the dark about most aspects of female biology.
You and other educated, enlightened coaches might be very knowledgable about girls' and women's bodies and our hormonal cycles, but a good many LRC posters don't seem to be. At all.
A lot of the men who are prominent in coaching, sports science and sports governance at the most elite levels are either pretty clueless about - or in willful denial of - female biology, female hormonal cycles, and all the ways that girls and women are very different physically to boys and men as well.
If these men weren't clueless - or intentionally in denial - about basic biological reality, then women's elite sports wouldn't be full of XY athletes with testes born with differences of male sex development like Caster Semenya.
Seriously, if most running coaches and other men in charge of track & field were as educated as you and had put policies in place insuring that older teenage and young adult female runners all got proper medical care including a regular checkups with a gynecologist, kept track of their menstrual cycles as a majority of the world's women do and all female athletes should do as a matter of course, had regular periods, and were taking precautions to prevent unwanted pregnancy for the sake of their athletic careers and health, then Semenya, Niyonsaba, Wambui, Seyni, Chand, Mboma and Masilingi never would have ended up in women's competition in the first place.
Similarly, if the men running organizations like the NCAA and IOC were as educated about female biology and its impacts on sports training and performance as you, they never would have changed their policies to allow males like Lia Thomas and CeCe Telfer to become women's NCAA champions and the male athletes Laurel Hubbard and Stephanie Barrett to compete in women's events at the 2021 Olympics.
If the coaches and everyone else responsible for scholastic sports including girls HS track & field in the high-income, supposedly liberal, Democratic Party-run state of CT were all cognizant of the special challenges that girls face in HS running due to their female biology, then how come CT allowed two males, Terry Miller and Andraya Yearwood, to enter and dominate in girls HS sprints several year ago? And how come education and government officials in the state are still fighting in the courts to defend and solidify the "right" they granted to males to compete in girls' scholastic sports?
Also, I am not arguing that coaches should base the training programs they devise for teams of female athletes on the hormonal cycles of each individual athlete. I am simply saying that the hormonal cycles and other myriad ways that female biology is very different to male biology need to be taken into account when designing and administering sports training programs for adolescent girls and young women. Doing this might be old hat and second nature to decent coaches like you, but it's not to a lot of people who are involved in designing and running sports programs even today when, as you say, "this isn't a brand-new societal topic."
My only reasoning for commenting on anything is to move conservations past surface level. Saying "we should take athlete's menstrual cycles into consideration" isn't helpful in any practical way other than starting a conversation. I'm not criticizing anyone (especially Lauren) for starting a conservation but we're on the 6th page of this and this isn't a new brand-new societal topic...decent coaches already think about this stuff.
It's simply a reality that implementing practical training changes *in a team setting* based on individual athlete's menstrual cycles is difficult.
If this were a specialist forum for coaches who are already extremely well educated about the intricacies of female human biology and their impact on sports to discuss the specifics of training programs for female athletes, then I'd get why you are frustrated that "we're on the 6th page of this" and in your view the convo still hasn't moved "past surface level."
But that's not what the LRC message board is. The LRC MB is a general interest running-related forum where my impression is that most of the posters and readers are not coaches of girls and women like you - and quite a lot of them are are pretty much in the dark about most aspects of female biology.
You and other educated, enlightened coaches might be very knowledgable about girls' and women's bodies and our hormonal cycles, but a good many LRC posters don't seem to be. At all.
A lot of the men who are prominent in coaching, sports science and sports governance at the most elite levels are either pretty clueless about - or in willful denial of - female biology, female hormonal cycles, and all the ways that girls and women are very different physically to boys and men as well.
If these men weren't clueless - or intentionally in denial - about basic biological reality, then women's elite sports wouldn't be full of XY athletes with testes born with differences of male sex development like Caster Semenya.
Seriously, if most running coaches and other men in charge of track & field were as educated as you and had put policies in place insuring that older teenage and young adult female runners all got proper medical care including a regular checkups with a gynecologist, kept track of their menstrual cycles as a majority of the world's women do and all female athletes should do as a matter of course, had regular periods, and were taking precautions to prevent unwanted pregnancy for the sake of their athletic careers and health, then Semenya, Niyonsaba, Wambui, Seyni, Chand, Mboma and Masilingi never would have ended up in women's competition in the first place.
Similarly, if the men running organizations like the NCAA and IOC were as educated about female biology and its impacts on sports training and performance as you, they never would have changed their policies to allow males like Lia Thomas and CeCe Telfer to become women's NCAA champions and the male athletes Laurel Hubbard and Stephanie Barrett to compete in women's events at the 2021 Olympics.
If the coaches and everyone else responsible for scholastic sports including girls HS track & field in the high-income, supposedly liberal, Democratic Party-run state of CT were all cognizant of the special challenges that girls face in HS running due to their female biology, then how come CT allowed two males, Terry Miller and Andraya Yearwood, to enter and dominate in girls HS sprints several year ago? And how come education and government officials in the state are still fighting in the courts to defend and solidify the "right" they granted to males to compete in girls' scholastic sports?
Also, I am not arguing that coaches should base the training programs they devise for teams of female athletes on the hormonal cycles of each individual athlete. I am simply saying that the hormonal cycles and other myriad ways that female biology is very different to male biology need to be taken into account when designing and administering sports training programs for adolescent girls and young women. Doing this might be old hat and second nature to decent coaches like you, but it's not to a lot of people who are involved in designing and running sports programs even today when, as you say, "this isn't a brand-new societal topic."
Those are all fair points that I mostly agree with. I don’t really want to get into transgender athletes in sports but I’ll just say I think there’s many people who would say they understand female biology and the special challenges they face, but they believe transgender athletes have a very small impact on athletics as a whole so their inclusion supersedes the few biological females who may not win as a result. I don’t personally agree with them. I don’t understand why I can’t still include all transgender athletes by allowing them to compete with respect to their biological sex while still presenting as whichever gender they choose. But regardless, there are probably some people that do actually understand the female body yet still hold their opinion. Intersex athletes are more complicated in my opinion (and each case is somewhat unique) so I think it’s reasonable for even the most educated of people to have conflicting opinions there.
But in general, most of the conversation around transgender and intersex athletes does seem to largely dismiss the biology and unique experiences of biological females. I can only imagine that would be quite frustrating!
I agree with all that (and I know what the menstrual cycle is), but my point was that research regarding the entire menstrual cycle in relation to training and athletic performance isn’t conclusive. Again, the only consensus is there’s a huge degree of variability between individuals (which you seem to agree with). There is no clear scientific consensus that says how to train most effectively throughout a menstrual cycle with fluctuating hormones. Even if we could theoretically test your progesterone and estrogen levels every day, along with your HRV, Heart rate and other metrics, there still isn’t great consensus on what is best for training. (Generally, if your resting HR is significantly high and HRV is lower, maybe don’t try to crush a workout, but you have to train at some point). And even if there was some consensus, how can you practically manage that with 15-20 women? Let’s say theoretically Whoop scientists somehow discovered how the fluctuations of hormones impacts how an individual adapts to specific training stimuli. (And it uses HRV and other metrics and fitness performance changes over time to somehow track how “effective” the workouts were so the data is also individualized to the athlete). Then on each day, it gives an accurate readiness score for different methods of training “threshold work” “anaerobic work” CNS heavy work like heavy lifting and sprints” etc. 100 being you get the best stimulus. (Devices like OmegaWave do this actually- probably much more accurate than Whoop- but still idk exactly how useful the tool is- worth looking into though). Anyways, say you had perfectly accurate readiness scores, as a coach, what do you do when all 15 women have different scores and a hormonal profile to respond better to a different type a workout? The more anyone coaches, I think the more they realize that the psychological aspect of training-especially with a team- is incredibly important- but impossible to quantify. So a certain workout on a certain day may not be the theoretical best for a particular athlete- but throughout 4-5 years in a program, athletes collectively working out together with good team culture (with just the right amount of individualization when necessary) likely leads to more success than a theoretical best individual schedule where everyone does their own things based on when they’re “optimized” to work out.
I think a lot of people just casually throw out “we should take these factors into consideration and modify training around it” but there’s probably very very few that actually know how to effectively do that in a team setting. This will sounds cynical, but the ones that appear to know what they’re doing, probably aren’t doing anything special from a physiological perspective. They are probably just letting the athletes talk, making the athletes feel heard, and slightly changing things to make the athletes feel more comfortable and confident about when and what they’re doing. There’s so much psychology- the perception that you’re doing the “right thing for your body” is powerful and likely leads to better results. Obviously, there is an underlying real physiological component- it’s just incredibly complex and I’m honestly skeptical of anyone who says they’ve “figured it out”. With that said, there are some obvious times where you just feel absolutely terrible and can’t hit any splits- so just do the workout a different day. And some people will have very obvious repeat symptoms that you figure out and can manage.
Please don't interpret anything I've said as a suggestion that male coaches should be using - or thinking of using - the sorts of devices, tech, systems and methods you discuss in your first paragraph to test the sex hormone levels of their/your female athletes "every day" - or ever!
The idea of coaches of either sex subjecting their female athletes to invasive testing of their sex hormones - on a daily basis or at any time ever - so they can come up with what you call "accurate readiness scores" to determine how the athletes should be working out - and what should be expected of them - each day/week would be incredibly inappropriate, prying and downright creepy.
I'd even go so far as to say that the sort of sex hormone testing program for female athletes that you've imagined and shared in your first paragraph to be sexual abuse and a gross violation of the female athletes' human rights. In fact, the daily sex hormone testing program for young female athletes you've described in a detail that I found a bit disturbing struck me as entering/bordering on Larry Nassar territory. I don't mean to suggest that's how you actually meant it, just that that's how it came across to me on first reading.
In my post, I simply said that the "changes and impacts [that occur] over the whole [female hormone] cycle need to be taken into account when coaching and coming up with training programs, schedules, performance expectations, dietary regimens, weight standards, etc for young female athletes." It's a far cry from saying that to suggesting that men who coach should start exerting more power, control and dominance over young female athletes by coming up with mad-scientist ways to measure female sex hormones so they can start subjecting the young women and MS and HS girls they coach to invasive and most likely humiliating testing to measure their sex hormones - on a daily basis to boot. (BTW, all this sort of testing would accomplish is insuring that the number of girls who drop out of sports after puberty starts goes up from circa 60% to 100%.)
As your second paragraph indicates you know full well already, there's a world of difference between coaches, sports scientists and other sports professionals taking the realities of female biology into account when designing training programs for female athletes and coaches using the intricacies of female biology as an excuse to take liberties with their female athletes.
BTW, I never said I had all the solutions to the problems under discussion all "figured out" - nor do I think Fleshman has. You're the one giving the impression that there's no or little point in women like Fleshman and me bringing up the shortcomings and flaws in the training and treatment of female athletes in the male-dominated, male-centric world of sports without providing a ready-made, easy-to-follow list of solutions for these problems all ready for implementation so that men who run the show in sports don't have to put in any or much though and work on these matters themselves.
RunRagged; I am finalizing my coaching authorization and will be looking for entry level junior high and/or high school cross country positions. I can fully admit that I am woefully underprepared to navigate such topics and perhaps unsurprisingly there is little discussion about these issues in the coaching materials given by the state. I don’t know if or when I may be coaching girls cross country in the future but if you would be in anyway amenable I’d love to reach out privately when that time comes to hear more of your advice and suggestions on this. My coaching network is non-existent and I don’t have any female acquaintances who do or who have run competitively at present. At any rate, I appreciate your contributions to this thread as a starting point and perhaps more importantly a wake up call!.
This post was edited 2 minutes after it was posted.
Reason provided:
Fixed spelling error