Not sure about the 20-year layoff, but the Masters Rankings website all-time 1500m list (no mile list so add 20 seconds) has over 100 M40-44 performances below 4:00 (or approximately 4:20 mile). However, for US rankings from 2019 (prior to Covid) the fastest M40-44 mile was 4:37.02 (age 44).
Based on my own comeback experience, you're making a number of mistakes.
#1- You're not running every day. Walking, biking, and gym stuff are not running. You need to actually RUN every day in order to progress and develop what you've lost. Running entails getting off the ground with each stride.
Jogging barefoot for 10' on the treadmill each day would be much better compared to what you've been doing. Daily bouncing from one foot to the other while swinging the opposite leg forward 100 times in a doorway can be helpful for a warmup (my version of the 100 ups exercise).
#2- Doing a time trial on a trail was asking for trouble, and you got it. You need to have a flat smooth surface for a time trial, either a track or else a similar smooth flat level surface.
#3- Running uses your calves completely differently than cycling, which is exactly why they started hurting. You'll be lucky if you didn't already get injured. You need to take it easy at the start and gradually build up the running movements and tissues.
#4- As you get used to getting off the ground and your calves get used to the exercise, you could start doing some moderate 100m repeats or the equivalent, not for speed, but simply to get used to getting off the ground, which is strengthening for your unused muscles, tendons and ligaments. Also it's a step up in getting your calves and rest of your legs used to the exercise.
#5- Walking can help your progress, but it's not a substitute for the necessity to keep doing some running each day and progressing. Cycling and gym work won't help your running at all and are more likely to be counter productive.
Based on my own comeback experience, you're making a number of mistakes.
#1- You're not running every day. Walking, biking, and gym stuff are not running. You need to actually RUN every day in order to progress and develop what you've lost. Running entails getting off the ground with each stride.
Jogging barefoot for 10' on the treadmill each day would be much better compared to what you've been doing. Daily bouncing from one foot to the other while swinging the opposite leg forward 100 times in a doorway can be helpful for a warmup (my version of the 100 ups exercise).
#2- Doing a time trial on a trail was asking for trouble, and you got it. You need to have a flat smooth surface for a time trial, either a track or else a similar smooth flat level surface.
#3- Running uses your calves completely differently than cycling, which is exactly why they started hurting. You'll be lucky if you didn't already get injured. You need to take it easy at the start and gradually build up the running movements and tissues.
#4- As you get used to getting off the ground and your calves get used to the exercise, you could start doing some moderate 100m repeats or the equivalent, not for speed, but simply to get used to getting off the ground, which is strengthening for your unused muscles, tendons and ligaments. Also it's a step up in getting your calves and rest of your legs used to the exercise.
#5- Walking can help your progress, but it's not a substitute for the necessity to keep doing some running each day and progressing. Cycling and gym work won't help your running at all and are more likely to be counter productive.
Totally agree with the TT terrain, it's not what I originally planned without going into details. The running frequency is definitely something I need to get dialed and a calf strengthen routine will be implemented. Appreciate the advice and feedback!
I'm glad to see most posters are realistically saying near impossible, but not shooting you down all together. Let me be the first. No how, no way. I'll let you crap in my hat & will wear it for a day if you can break 4:40. And what's with the Youtube thing? Legit curious. Accountability? Motivation?
Not sure how to answer the YouTube thing - I guess I thought it would be cool to document the journey. You're probably right with the no how, no way - not going to stop me from trying though.
Actually running is what is needed for running. Your calves are already strong, but that's not the same as being ready for running.
Jogging, running, 100 ups, strides, and using a Precor elliptical are all good for running. Use and development of the calves for running is quite similar for all of these.
Things like heel lifts are terrible and are best avoided.
I'm glad to see most posters are realistically saying near impossible, but not shooting you down all together. Let me be the first. No how, no way. I'll let you crap in my hat & will wear it for a day if you can break 4:40. And what's with the Youtube thing? Legit curious. Accountability? Motivation?
Not sure how to answer the YouTube thing - I guess I thought it would be cool to document the journey. You're probably right with the no how, no way - not going to stop me from trying though.
Don't let the haters put any doubt in your mind brother. Stay hard and dedicated.
Actually running is what is needed for running. Your calves are already strong, but that's not the same as being ready for running.
Jogging, running, 100 ups, strides, and using a Precor elliptical are all good for running. Use and development of the calves for running is quite similar for all of these.
Things like heel lifts are terrible and are best avoided.
Got it! Will definitely start with the 100 ups and replace some of the walking with the elliptical. Once my calf heals up, we can come up with a better running plan.
Thanks for the post - I did a mile TT today. Felt great warming up and even did a few strides (the plan was to run around 7 minutes, so I wasn't going to bother). On the last one, I went full gas and was blown away with how fast the legs turned over. I instantly got excited and decided to run harder than originally planned. I got some video of the sprint that I will post on my channel. The TT wasn't ideal. It was on a horse trail with mud and rocks, on/off rain, cold and not completely flat. I started off at 6-minute pace and that felt moderate. The last-minute plan was to switch into race mode with 800 meters to go and be at full gas the last 200 meters. At around 800 meters my calf started to feel funny and by 1200 meters it hurt so I decided to stop. My NGP was 5:37 for around 1200 meters (El Gain 54 El Lost 79). I'm a bit bummed because I was ready to launch the last 800 meters. I don't think it's a serious injury as I was able to MTB right after with minimal pain. The interesting thing is that I hit a new HR max of 186 which is incredible because I absolutely destroy myself MTB racing. The TT didn't seem like I was going that hard and it was the same H10 I use on the bike.
I'm doing exactly that, running (mostly walking) in the morning and riding in the afternoon. The only major bike difference this year is that I'm reducing the number of base hours and using that time for gym work and running. Agree with eliminating the running timeline, especially since I'm already having an issue with my calf.
It's a small setback that could have/should have been prevented. I've literally only been on two runs longer than 5-minutes in continuous duration, everything else has been walking or a combination of running/walking. A few days off, then back at it...
Thanks for the post - I did a mile TT today. Felt great warming up and even did a few strides (the plan was to run around 7 minutes, so I wasn't going to bother). On the last one, I went full gas and was blown away with how fast the legs turned over. I instantly got excited and decided to run harder than originally planned. I got some video of the sprint that I will post on my channel. The TT wasn't ideal. It was on a horse trail with mud and rocks, on/off rain, cold and not completely flat. I started off at 6-minute pace and that felt moderate. The last-minute plan was to switch into race mode with 800 meters to go and be at full gas the last 200 meters. At around 800 meters my calf started to feel funny and by 1200 meters it hurt so I decided to stop. My NGP was 5:37 for around 1200 meters (El Gain 54 El Lost 79). I'm a bit bummed because I was ready to launch the last 800 meters. I don't think it's a serious injury as I was able to MTB right after with minimal pain. The interesting thing is that I hit a new HR max of 186 which is incredible because I absolutely destroy myself MTB racing. The TT didn't seem like I was going that hard and it was the same H10 I use on the bike.
I'm doing exactly that, running (mostly walking) in the morning and riding in the afternoon. The only major bike difference this year is that I'm reducing the number of base hours and using that time for gym work and running. Agree with eliminating the running timeline, especially since I'm already having an issue with my calf.
It's a small setback that could have/should have been prevented. I've literally only been on two runs longer than 5-minutes in continuous duration, everything else has been walking or a combination of running/walking. A few days off, then back at it...
I feel like we're being trolled here.
Fool me once...
I can see that being I posted a link to my YouTube channel. Not my intention to troll.
can you do it? absolutely. will you do it? probably not, but i'm only saying this from the perspective of if i were betting, not necessarily to discourage you.
my advice:
1) avoid most training advice you get here on letsrun. i'm not saying it's bad or uninformed, but for a goal this ambitious i think you'll need a more structured big-picture plan, not a hodgepodge of random quality workouts and drills.
2) find a training group and/or coach that can help you. again, this is a seriously ambitious goal; you'll need help, especially when those "why am i even bothering with this?" moments come, and they will.
my experience: running this fast requires a fairly extreme level of commitment, regardless of ability. if you fail, it likely won't be lack of ability, but lack of commitment because...well...you're 41 and probably should have other priorities (though there's nothing wrong with making this goal a priority depending on where you are at this stage in life), even though it sounds like your work-level may allow the requisite time and energy. so maybe you can balance this goal with other priorities. if you read up on the john trautmann article posted earlier, you'll see he came from a background of incredible talent, but also ability to commit fully to a goal. my own experiences with many of the best masters runners in the country is that this is the trait they share, not necessarily talent.
can you do it? absolutely. will you do it? probably not, but i'm only saying this from the perspective of if i were betting, not necessarily to discourage you.
my advice:
1) avoid most training advice you get here on letsrun. i'm not saying it's bad or uninformed, but for a goal this ambitious i think you'll need a more structured big-picture plan, not a hodgepodge of random quality workouts and drills.
2) find a training group and/or coach that can help you. again, this is a seriously ambitious goal; you'll need help, especially when those "why am i even bothering with this?" moments come, and they will.
my experience: running this fast requires a fairly extreme level of commitment, regardless of ability. if you fail, it likely won't be lack of ability, but lack of commitment because...well...you're 41 and probably should have other priorities (though there's nothing wrong with making this goal a priority depending on where you are at this stage in life), even though it sounds like your work-level may allow the requisite time and energy. so maybe you can balance this goal with other priorities. if you read up on the john trautmann article posted earlier, you'll see he came from a background of incredible talent, but also ability to commit fully to a goal. my own experiences with many of the best masters runners in the country is that this is the trait they share, not necessarily talent.
carpe crepusculum,
cush
All of the above.
Its not impossible, but your 41 and even with the most perfect ideal training (i.e. no injuries, life events etc - which common are 100% going to happen) it will take you 3, 4 , 5+ years of training and racing regularly - and that last bit is key you'll need to race a fair bit, you wont just be able to do some training and pop out a 4.19 mile. So say it takes you 5 years, you are now 46! and a 4.19 mile by a 46 year old is world class.
Sorry, but its not happening dude, time is not on your side I'm afraid.
can you do it? absolutely. will you do it? probably not, but i'm only saying this from the perspective of if i were betting, not necessarily to discourage you.
my advice:
1) avoid most training advice you get here on letsrun. i'm not saying it's bad or uninformed, but for a goal this ambitious i think you'll need a more structured big-picture plan, not a hodgepodge of random quality workouts and drills.
2) find a training group and/or coach that can help you. again, this is a seriously ambitious goal; you'll need help, especially when those "why am i even bothering with this?" moments come, and they will.
my experience: running this fast requires a fairly extreme level of commitment, regardless of ability. if you fail, it likely won't be lack of ability, but lack of commitment because...well...you're 41 and probably should have other priorities (though there's nothing wrong with making this goal a priority depending on where you are at this stage in life), even though it sounds like your work-level may allow the requisite time and energy. so maybe you can balance this goal with other priorities. if you read up on the john trautmann article posted earlier, you'll see he came from a background of incredible talent, but also ability to commit fully to a goal. my own experiences with many of the best masters runners in the country is that this is the trait they share, not necessarily talent.
carpe crepusculum,
cush
Appreciate the feedback, my plan is to join a track club and then hire a coach if I’m able to progress a bit. Based off what I’m reading on this thread, 4:40ish would be a more realistic goal at my age. I will take a look at John’s article this evening.
My HS/college PRs were 57/2:08/4:40 (focused more on long road races). I began my comeback age 37 with a decent all around fitness level, just under 5:00. I initially did higher mileage (50-70 mpw) thinking I would be running mainly 5-21K. By age 40 I jumped into some summer all-comers track meets and found I could beat the guys who were ahead of me on the roads. by mid-40s I was 55/2:05/4:19 (for 1500). A key element was having lots of track meets in the form of small college meets in spring and all-comers/masters in summer.
The good news is that you are overall fit and have good running form. The weak link for most MD guys is the lower leg, i.e. achilles, foot, ankles. I suggest a specific strengthening program, kneesovertoesguy has some great youtube videos and basic programs. You need strong tibialis and ankles to withstand the hard turns on the track. The real game-changer here for me is walking and jogging backwards, including up and down hills. I do this in warmuos/cooldowns and along with sprint drills and anytime I need to "restore" my biomechanics. I honestly feel that with this as a 40-something I could have scared 2:02/4:10. I am just glad to have full joint health now in my 60s after blowing up my achilles at 50.
You might look or ask around to see what kind of races are available. When in my best shape I ran 8-10 races 400-3000, minimum.
Also don't neglect quality animal protein. 1g/lb lean mass/day from whole sources, not powders or processed stuff. "protein bars" and such are literally garbage. Meat, eggs, fish, dairy will give you incredible recovery abilities. Just enough carbs to top off the tank for track sessions. Your longevity will thank you for discipline in this regard.
can you do it? absolutely. will you do it? probably not, but i'm only saying this from the perspective of if i were betting, not necessarily to discourage you.
my advice:
1) avoid most training advice you get here on letsrun. i'm not saying it's bad or uninformed, but for a goal this ambitious i think you'll need a more structured big-picture plan, not a hodgepodge of random quality workouts and drills.
2) find a training group and/or coach that can help you. again, this is a seriously ambitious goal; you'll need help, especially when those "why am i even bothering with this?" moments come, and they will.
my experience: running this fast requires a fairly extreme level of commitment, regardless of ability. if you fail, it likely won't be lack of ability, but lack of commitment because...well...you're 41 and probably should have other priorities (though there's nothing wrong with making this goal a priority depending on where you are at this stage in life), even though it sounds like your work-level may allow the requisite time and energy. so maybe you can balance this goal with other priorities. if you read up on the john trautmann article posted earlier, you'll see he came from a background of incredible talent, but also ability to commit fully to a goal. my own experiences with many of the best masters runners in the country is that this is the trait they share, not necessarily talent.
carpe crepusculum,
cush
Appreciate the feedback, my plan is to join a track club and then hire a coach if I’m able to progress a bit. Based off what I’m reading on this thread, 4:40ish would be a more realistic goal at my age. I will take a look at John’s article this evening.
Don't start quitting goal-wise before you've started.
Go for the 4:20's as a long-term goal 2-4 years and see where the cards fall.
You might end up at 4:55 or 4:15 - who are we to judge?