Trans woman sets new Canadian Record in Masters Women Indoor 5000m

Your position would have merit if they declined to take a position, and instead said they are "focusing on their core issues."

But they DID take a position, and it apparently takes little time or energy to do so. Taking the opposite position, via a press release and nothing else, would take the same amount of time and effort. In both cases you can then decide to decline interviews on the topic.

Wait we're getting this upset over someone running 18:02??

Give it three years and Sasha Gollish will be 45-49 masters and will beat that w a sub 16 lol.

Okay. Here is the reason they took the position they did.

Let us not lose sight of the most valuable aspects of sport participation, which go well beyond the medals: to instill health and wellness; to build camaraderie and belonging; to learn discipline and leadership.

In other words, it is an organization for people who participate in sports for health, wellness, camaraderie and learning discipline and leadership. It is NOT an organization for competitive athletes like the vast majority of LRC posters. You need to understand they have different priorities.

I read that. I certainly read things that I link to.

They are welcome to their priorities and their position. My response was to the post suggesting that women need to take action to clean this up (however that is worded, it is a common refrain). At this point that isn't happening. The opposite is. For whatever reason, the notable women's groups are siding with the trans participants.

It doesn't happen all at once. It happens like this. In Canada, there were probably dozens of women who might have been motivated to stay active in competitive sport so they could take a shot at the age group record. Then someone with male biology puts the record out of their reach. Now the group who might compete for it is much, much smaller.

Repeat the process at every level over time, from world records to road race age group records, and you end up with a situation where the only people with a shot are biological males and a tiny group of women who can compete on the same level. For a much larger group, one important motivation to compete has been taken away. And it's the lower levels where one transgender athlete has the most immediate, dramatic impact.

That is how you end women's sports.

Envisioning this athlete as a woman competing takes me down memory lane:

Image:e00-elmundo.uecdn.es/assets/multimedia...

Okay. At the risk of perpetuating stereotypes, I think one reason they take the position they do is that women and men have different priorities in sports.

The vast majority of women participate in sports do so for the reasons I pasted above. Only a small fraction (mostly at the very top) take winning as the top priority. For them, the benefit of participating in sports is about physical and mental wellness, being part of the team, learning valuable life lessons like discipline and leadership. So when they learn their friend cannot be on the same team as them, they try to stand for their friend.

For men, it's always about winning, winning and winning. It is true from top to bottom. So they see any trans athlete as someone who is trying to steal victory away from girls.

Most trans girls in high schools and middle schools are not interested in "beating girls." They are interested in playing sports with their friends and building camaraderie. They want to participate in sports for the wellness and learing discipline, just like most other girls do. But men cannot see it that way. because sports are always about winning, winning and winnng for them.

BTW, even some of the most competitive athletes take the view summarized above. This episode of ESPN's "37 Words" include interviews of Ginny Gilder and Chris Earnst on this issue. (Earnst is a world champion, and Gilder is an Olympic silver medalist in rowing. Both were on the first women's crew at Yale. Gilder is also a part owner of Seattle Storm. So she is directly involved in today;s women's sports at an elite level.)

espn.com

37 Words (Part 4) | Watch ESPN

Stream 37 Words (Part 4) on Watch ESPN

Link:www.espn.com/espnplus/player/_/id/7d51...

Well, they're male, so they're more likely to just care about "winning" as you said.

Disagree in the specific context of this post. Has anybody in a decision making position at the applicable governing body bothered to ask us (the women who currently and have competed in the league). Because I can tell you that while we greatly appreciate one another’s company, the gloves are off as soon as the gun goes. We want to win and set records as much as the guys. NO ONE asks or cares about our views.

And to be clear, I know Tiffany and like her as a person but the way this has been handled sucks from start to finish.

I will agree with your position regarding why there are differences in how we (men and women) approach this. I think you have a good read on this.

At the same time, I will offer that there are some groups, largely led by women who have a history competing in high-level athletics, that seek to protect sports and the original intent of Title IX by maintaining equal sport opportunities based on "biological sex."

This group includes Donna De Varona, Martina Navratilova, Donna Lopiano, Nancy Hogshead-Makar, and many others. It also includes athletes who competed as trans athletes.

Part of their resolution:

It is essential that we continue to affirm girls’ and women’s sport. It is also good policy to be inclusive when doing so does not harm the female sports competition or the individuals separate sex sport is designed to protect. Congress and the Administration should make it clear that institutions governed by Title IX of the Education Amendments of 1972 (Title IX), the Ted Stevens Olympic and Amateur Sports Act (the Sports Act), and Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (Title VII) will:

(1) continue to be obligated to provide males and females with equal sporting opportunities on the basis of biological sex, and

(2) be newly obligated to provide ways to include trans girls/women in girls’/women’s sports that ensure competitive fairness and playing-safety without diminishing the protection of biological females.

womenssportspolicy.org

The Resolution - Women's Sports Policy Working Group

Women's Sports Policy Working Group

It is essential that we continue to affirm girls’ and women’s sport. It is also good policy to be inclusive when doing so does not harm the female sports competition or the individuals separate sex sport is designed to protec...

Link:womenssportspolicy.org/the-resolution/

🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮

As a female athlete with athletic daughters, I respectfully disagree with your stereotypical take on this, as would everyone in our respective athletic circles.

We also wonder why, with the inescapable rallying cry of "equity" everywhere, why bio females are left out of the entitlement to equity. Where's the "fairness"? Where's our equity? What's left for us?

Wow none of those things seem important compared to you know having actual females in sports. Otherwise everything else they are will ultimately just be for men as well.

Most posters on this board will probably disagree with this group.

Starting with this.

Because the onset of male puberty — normally around ages 11 – 12 in boys — is the physical justification for separate sex sport,[1] trans girls and women who have never experienced the onset of male puberty should be included without condition. Trans girls and women who have experienced the onset of male puberty should be included in ways that recognize their male sex-linked advantages in strength, power, and endurance.

And this.

This proposal is designed for competitive girls’ and women’s sport, i.e., sport whose focus is adversarial engagement for places in rounds, finals, on podiums, and for the championship, and for the experiential, financial, and ancillary rewards that flow from success in this space. It is not designed for participation or recreational sport, i.e., sport whose focus is friendly play for social engagement, health, and welfare. Given its different focus and goals, eligibility standards for participation sport can and should be different from those of competitive sport.

Most posters on this board would not be satisfied unless every sinble trans woman and gilr is eiminated from every competitive at every level. And that's what half of the state legislatues in the US are trying to do.

Wow world athletics needs to update to swimming standards or tougher.

A main reason for the low female turnout in this particular age group - 45-49 - is that this is when most females are in the thick of menopause. Menopause is a multi-year physical process that really takes a huge toll on many women physically and psychologically.

Many women who've been through it will tell you that menopause negatively affected their ability to stay fit and to be competitive in sports far worse than any other physical experience they've been through - pregnancy and new motherhood, extremely bad periods, pregnancy loss, cancer treatment, sports injuries, childbirth injuries.

Athletics and other sports have a long way to go in helping women stay active and competitive in the menopause years. But one surefire way to make sports the least welcoming and hospitable for women of menopause age is to expect them to compete against males of their same age who never once in their lives have ever had to give the impact of menopause on their fitness, ability to compete and lives even a moment's thought.

What a bunch of regressive sexist tripe, mate.

Lots of girls and women who engage in competitive sports care about winning just as much as boys and men. Some of us are cutthroats with killer instincts who are dead-set on winning even when playing board games like Monopoly, Battleship and Scrabble.

Many girls and women enjoy beating the pants of their competitors in sports and games, including those we are good friends with.

Also, lots of girls and women do sports that are mainly about individual achievement rather than "being part of the team." Singles tennis, gymnastics and swimming, for example.

This might come as a surprise to you, but there are plenty of ways other than competitive team sports for girls and women to obtain physical and mental wellness individually or in group settings with other girls and women - yoga class, dance, aerobics, Pilates, meditation, hobby jogging, doing all sorts of sports activities (skating, jump rope, bike riding, skiing, tennis, shooting hoops, bowling, swimming, sailing, etc) for pure fun.

Maybe guys need competitive team sports to get a sense of kinship, belonging and being a part of team. But girls and women sure don't. Growing up and through the course of our lives, girls and women create and get many chances wholly apart from competitive sports to get together with other girls and women and feel kinship, camaraderie, solidarity, a shared sense of purpose and the feeling of being part of a group, team, club, clique, crafts circle, kitchen crew, choir/choral group, orchestra, band, theater production team, acting troupe, dance company, cheer or pep squad, etc.

There are plenty of other ways apart from competitive sports ways for girls and women to "learn valuable life lessons like discipline and leadership" - school work, working on the school news paper or yearbook, being a member of a choir or marching band, pursuing mentally challenging extracurricular activities, arts and crafts, scouting, household chores, babysitting, working as a camp counselor, tutoring younger kids, political activism, working in various paid jobs like girls used to work routinely such as in restaurants, fast food, hospitality and retail.

There are some pretty ridiculous situations out there when it comes to high testosterone in sport - eg Caster dominating with 13nmol +, or non transitioned trans athletes dominating women's cycling races. But if you take two seconds to look up stats you'd realize this ain't one of those situations. It looks like it was just a super soft record because there are so few masters 5000m run indoors in Canada. The only thing that is out of reach in this situation is the women's outdoor Canadian records for this trans athlete in that age grade. It's not a good time, and no masters athlete actually capable of competing at the national level is walking away from the sport because of this time.

The women's outdoor 5000 record for 45-49 in Canada is Marilyn Arsenault at 16:49 - over 70s faster than the time everyone is getting upset about here. Arsenault has the 45-49 10000 record at 34:28 - she could have beaten this athlete by 30s plus back to back en route to a 10k.

In fact the women's 50-54 outdoor record is 17:23 by Maria Zambrano. Zambrano at 51 did a 78min half - so 18:30 pace for 4 5kms in a row. Looks like she could sleep walk and 18min indoor 5km if she chose to.

Looks like this athlete only has the record because neither of those women ever bothered to drop an indoor 5000.

Looks like this athlete only has the record because neither of those women ever bothered to drop an indoor 5000.

...

the athlete only has the record because they are pretending to be a woman and the authorities are colluding in their fantasy