How young is TOO young?

hmmm, yes, you inquire about the Guntsch sisters, Stormi-Ann and Windi-Sue. Your last question first...so far as I know, neither does any running currently and I don't know that they ran for their high school, Montrose.

Many are the incidents and episodes where for all intents and purposes it appeared to onlookers at races that child abuse was at work w/dad, Gerry, and the kids who were 8-9 years apart in age. They were raced frequently and all over the map. They were adored by an unsuspecting media, admired by those that should've known better while others who could spot abuse when they see it hoped the kids wouldn't somehow be scarred by the whole rotten situation.

The dad many times tried to defend himself to critics and wound up talking in circles. There's no way he could've defended the stuff he put those girls thru. If I'd done stuff like that, I'd want my friend to get in my face.

I know of others intances of child/runner abuse in MI, some of it that involved me personally, indirectly. I plan to do a piece on this topic for Mich Runner next issue. This thread has yanked my chain.

Who the friggin' cares? These are not your children.

hey wait....so b-day...lets just say you had a kid. and some guy was doing nasty things to your kid. like sticking his pee pee up his butt.

and i knew about it. but i didnt say anything, because its not MY kid. Would it matter then? these kids will be psychologically messed up anyway. Child abuse comes in many forms.

Allowing a kid who loves to run train so much is not ideal and smart, but it is not child abuse. Does the father scorn her or force her to run? Does he degrade her when she runs poorly? I do not know them, but I am assuming the father is there for support and will allow her to quit if that is what she wants. But, I dunno.

And to equate it with incest is just damn stupid. It is not child abuse. Leave them alone.

B-Day, don't worry about Mary. She ain't too bright, so no need to defned a point when she makes it for you.

On a related note, I heard once that the elder Shay had his kids run from time to time for punishment or discipline's sake. Looks like Ryan is a hurtin' now from all that abuse.

B-day, there's nothing in marython's post that refers to incest. Read it again, slowly. Whether a parent is being verbally abusive or not, if they condone the overemphasis on running in pre-high school runners (and then sometimes even in high school), it's abuse AND ignorance.

Anytime running is used as punishment is stupid. Whether a kid 'survives' these incidents isn't important. They never should've had to endure them in the first place.

I can remember running indoor track meets when I was a senior in high school and getting beat by Windi-Sue. And I remember her dad too...running across the track each lap and screaming at her. She was soooo young.

kids need martial arts at this age not running 50 mpw

Its ok for 12 yr old boys to run mileage. Girls on the other hand should be in training mode to be good mothers and submissive wives.

Ah yes, both Stormi Ann and Wendi Sue Gunstch were featured in Sports Illustrated. In '92 Wendi Sue made it into RW for running something like 168 races in a year.

And no, I don't think they ever did run for their high school.

All in the Family wrote:

Jeni, Jil, Jesi Jacy, Jed, Jake, Job, Joshua ... JESUS!

ha ha ha ha ha

Ah...I see this thread has resurfaced. We can offer our opinions on this board about how young is too young but so long as there are national programs and championships for kids under 12, we'll be having this debate. Look around at other sports.

There are youth programs in just about every sport and kids are burning out in all of them. So long as fun is squeezed out of the pic for kids, they'll continue getting turned off their (soccer, swim, baseball, run, karate, etc) sport. Adults are the pros at mucking up the lives of their kids.

We're all different. People thought Cathy O'Brien was too young.

I'd be the first to accede that there are many exceptions to the early burn-out concerns I have about young runners. I've seen and know plenty of these exceptions personally.

Given that, for every exception that can be noted, I'd say there are about 25 that got the desire to continue drilled right out of them by starting too young. Those odds are too great to be ignored. Youth programs that I'd design would NOT resemble those in place now.

I maintain middle school is the earliest kids ought to start in on a structured running program and even then should be a low-key, learn-the-fundamentals program.

Fun facts: I was central to the validation measurement for Cathy O'Brien's at-the-time WR for 10 miles at Crim in '89. I was at the finish when she finished the first Women's Oly Trials Marathon in Olympia, WA in '84 and cheered her onto the team in '88 in Pittsburgh. She was/is a precociuos talent and nice young woman.

If I were to design youth running programs, they certainly wouldn't revlove around 3 interval workouts weekly and high pressure races, either. I realize that most of the big name little kids never go anywhere in track, but neither do most of the average kids who start in 10th or 11th grade and run for the JV squad. The ones who were never on the radar in the first place don't create much commotion when they don't run in college or beyond, or don't continue to improve well into their twenties. I don't know enough about kiddie athletics to say whether or not the outlook for a kid who puts up big times at age 12 or 13 is much different than that of any kid who ever steps on the track in general (most of them never become household names), although I concede that their outlook isn't quite as good as that of kids who storm onto the national scene at age 17 or 18.

If you replace the word "youth" with "high school" "college" "club" "open", etc. you wind up with the same thing. You are way too general. There are many casualties at every level. Try to identify programs which have athletes successfully moving through the ranks.

consider this;

a successful age group runner goes to high school, is identified as a talent, then is abused for 4 years to score as many points as possible, becomes stale and injury prone, quits. Whose fault is that?

The questions are what does the sport need and what is the best way to get there.

My take:

1) Scotth has the best responses on this topic, and they mirror my opinion.

2) Age group records at an early age and then none afterwards could be a sign of burnout, but it could also be that it is easier to be the best at age 6 or age 9 because hardly anyone is doing it then. When you have a bigger pool of athletes by the time high school rolls around, you'll get some competition and then start getting your butt kicked - perhaps that helps with the burnout?

3) Burnout could simply be a matter of enthusiasm too. Hardly any of us are still enthusiastic as adults about what we were when we were 9. I wanted to be a baseball player when I grew up or an olympic diver. Don't really have the fire for those things anymore.

4) I disagree with the opinion that running like the young Briana does is the same as the amount of time put into soccer or another organized sport. For one thing, they don't hold practices 7 days a week. For another thing, even if they did do that, the entire practice isn't spent running at a continuous pace - there's time out for strategy, light dribbling drills, etc. - no where near as pounding on your body as running for 90 minutes or more.

5) People should NEVER think a preteen runner shows promise - too many things to steer them off course by the time real development should take place.

I'll agree that if young kids are running, it should be very low key and fun. (whatever that means)

I'll also agree that we can't generalize; each kid is an individual

kids should try lots of sports and find out what they like

Indeed,

Wendi-Sue did compete in HS. I saw her in about 1993 at the MHSAA State Meet. She was very excited about competing with her teammates at a big meet. I hope she is doing well now and did not inherit the illness that put an end to her sisters' career at a very young age. Wendi alway was enthusiastic about running (sometimes slow and sometimes fast) with others of all ages. It would be nice to hear from someone like her and let her tell how the running community has influenced her life.