BTW: Shoe companies who control the sport would be strongly against different surfaces and different shoe categories. Athletes would resist too. Just as many of my club teammates claim the shoes have nothing to do with their recent faster times but won't race in old style shoes anymore, elites don't want to run slower.
It can't really 4 - 5 % for the elite. 5% would be 6 minutes in a two hour marathon, and we already had a few sub 2:04 marathons before the carbon shoes came.
World records pre and post carbon shoes (road: 2016; track: 2019)
Marathon 2:02:57 (’14) – 2:01:09 (’22) – 2.6 s/km in 8 years Half marathon 58:23 (’10) – 57:31 (’21) – 2.5 s/km in 11 years 10000 m 26:17.53 (’05) – 26:11.00 (‘20) – 0.7 s/km in 15 years 5000 m 12:37.35 (’04) – 12:35.36 (’20) – 0.4 s/km in 16 years 3000 m 7:20.67 (’96) – unchanged 1500 m 3:26.00 (’98) – unchanged 800 m 1:40.91 (’12) – unchanged 400 m 43.03 (’16) – unchanged 200 m 19.19 (’09) – unchanged 100 m 9.58 (’09) – unchanged Marathon 2:17:42 (’05) – 2:17:01 (’17) – 1.0 s/km in 12 years Half marathon 1:06:25 (’07)-- 1:05:16 (’20) – 3.3 s/km in 13 years 10000 m 29:17.45 (’16) – 29:01.03 (’21) – 1.6 s/km in 5 years 5000 m 14:11.15 (’08) – 14:06.62 (’20) – 0.9 s/km in 12 years 3000 m 8:06.11 (’93) – unchanged 1500 m 3:50.07 (’15) – unchanged 800 m 1:53.28 (’83) – unchanged
Stop looking at EPO world records and start looking at depth of improvement of the masses. That tells you way more.
People always forget drug testing was not very good back then. A lot of runners in Kastor's era that never tested positive back then would 100% test positive with today's drug testing.
That's not to say Deena was or was not doing anything...just pointing out that it's impossible to compare across eras because there are so many variables.
I don’t support doping, but I support it more than super shoes. Super shoes is cheating that everyone agrees on. Poor athletes whose records are being beaten…
Personally, I’d rather see records get improved because of drugs that alter one’s body than records improve because of equipment (shoes, swimsuits, etc) We can keep adding foam and carbon to shoes all we want until a 4:30 high school miler can run 4:10, but what’s the point in the long run? Let’s let MLB baseball players use aluminum bats.
with drugs, at least we know what the human body is capable of. It’s simpler.
It isn't just about the shoes. Some of the toughest world records on the track were run decades ago. Shoe technology won't have improved only for shoes used on the roads. The differences in performance level from footwear will be far less than many here think, or those old world marks would have been obliterated by modern technology.
It isn't just about the shoes. Some of the toughest world records on the track were run decades ago. Shoe technology won't have improved only for shoes used on the roads. The differences in performance level from footwear will be far less than many here think, or those old world marks would have been obliterated by modern technology.
Look at post #62
You see gigantic leaps in times among the masses in runners who have started racing in supershoes.
I see this in training partners, in runners I coach and in local road races.
An example: a 38 year old guy I've trained with for years. His training has been the same for the last 7 years.
Previous 10k PR of 34:00, which he ran in 2019. Since then he has run almost 10 times under 35:00.
In early June he bought a pair of Vaporflies Next% 2 and later that month ran 2 10k races on consecutive days. His times?
33:23, 33:12
On consecutive days.
And this is just one of many examples I know personally.
I think that the race nutrition development is definitely important in the marathon. Maurten and other high carb drinks are really great in allowing high calorie intake for endurance events like the marathon, Ironman, cycling, etc. They're seeing big drops in course records in other endurance sports because of technology advancement and race nutrition as well.
"Back in the day" when athletes were slamming Gatorade or maple syrup or the first gels they couldn't have the same carbohydrate intake without puking. Getting a small bottle with Maurten or similar drink every 5k is an incredible way to fuel, and anyone who has tried that method will attest that it's much more pleasant and sustainable than old school race nutrition tactics. Taking in 1000 calories of Maurten in a marathon is fine, but taking 10 Gu's? No way. I'm not saying that it's responsible for every bit of the gains that have happened, but it's one of a handful of marginal gains that continue to drive times faster and faster.
I also get the feeling that pro runners now are doing a lot more work besides running than they used to, and that their entire day is composed of running, strengthening, and recovering. I don't know how much the actual workouts have changed, but it seems that top tier runners have a team of physios and trainers to consult.
I think that the race nutrition development is definitely important in the marathon. Maurten and other high carb drinks are really great in allowing high calorie intake for endurance events like the marathon, Ironman, cycling, etc. They're seeing big drops in course records in other endurance sports because of technology advancement and race nutrition as well.
"Back in the day" when athletes were slamming Gatorade or maple syrup or the first gels they couldn't have the same carbohydrate intake without puking. Getting a small bottle with Maurten or similar drink every 5k is an incredible way to fuel, and anyone who has tried that method will attest that it's much more pleasant and sustainable than old school race nutrition tactics. Taking in 1000 calories of Maurten in a marathon is fine, but taking 10 Gu's? No way. I'm not saying that it's responsible for every bit of the gains that have happened, but it's one of a handful of marginal gains that continue to drive times faster and faster.
I also get the feeling that pro runners now are doing a lot more work besides running than they used to, and that their entire day is composed of running, strengthening, and recovering. I don't know how much the actual workouts have changed, but it seems that top tier runners have a team of physios and trainers to consult.
This might partially explain why world an area records have been broken but not shattered. Elites are already exceptionally efficient AND are doing huge training volume in a very focused way.
Sub elites are seeing big gains as their efficiency and recovery are improved by the shoes. The depth of fast times even at the very highly trained NCAA level is vastly improved.
It isn't just about the shoes. Some of the toughest world records on the track were run decades ago. Shoe technology won't have improved only for shoes used on the roads. The differences in performance level from footwear will be far less than many here think, or those old world marks would have been obliterated by modern technology.
Look at post #62
You see gigantic leaps in times among the masses in runners who have started racing in supershoes.
I see this in training partners, in runners I coach and in local road races.
An example: a 38 year old guy I've trained with for years. His training has been the same for the last 7 years.
Previous 10k PR of 34:00, which he ran in 2019. Since then he has run almost 10 times under 35:00.
In early June he bought a pair of Vaporflies Next% 2 and later that month ran 2 10k races on consecutive days. His times?
33:23, 33:12
On consecutive days.
And this is just one of many examples I know personally.
Then why are there still world records in the "old" shoes? Are there only improvements in road shoes?
I think that the race nutrition development is definitely important in the marathon. Maurten and other high carb drinks are really great in allowing high calorie intake for endurance events like the marathon, Ironman, cycling, etc. They're seeing big drops in course records in other endurance sports because of technology advancement and race nutrition as well.
"Back in the day" when athletes were slamming Gatorade or maple syrup or the first gels they couldn't have the same carbohydrate intake without puking. Getting a small bottle with Maurten or similar drink every 5k is an incredible way to fuel, and anyone who has tried that method will attest that it's much more pleasant and sustainable than old school race nutrition tactics. Taking in 1000 calories of Maurten in a marathon is fine, but taking 10 Gu's? No way. I'm not saying that it's responsible for every bit of the gains that have happened, but it's one of a handful of marginal gains that continue to drive times faster and faster.
I also get the feeling that pro runners now are doing a lot more work besides running than they used to, and that their entire day is composed of running, strengthening, and recovering. I don't know how much the actual workouts have changed, but it seems that top tier runners have a team of physios and trainers to consult.
If that kind of "nutrition" was that performance enhancing it would be listed as doping. It isn't.
Add 2 minutes to every marathon in the super shoe era to compare to times run in the previous 25 years.
Emma ran 2:18:29 today. Add 2 minutes to that and you get 2:20:29. Deena ran 2:19:36, so Deena is still the fastest American female in the marathon.
What a joke. The world marathon record has been beat on average every other year for decades and decades. Dennis Kimetto ran 2:02:57 in 2014. So you're saying he would be 2:00:57 in super shoes and it would be a record that lasts more than 8 years, likely even longer since I doubt anyone including Kipchoge will be running faster than that in the next few years? From when Khalid Khannouchi ran WR of 2:05:38 in 2002 to Dennis Kimetto's 2:02:57 in 2014 the world record got broken 6 times in those 12 years, so every other year on average. And got broken by an average of 27 seconds. Let's say the trend contined every other year since 2014 but the average dropped down to only 20 seconds. We'd expect the world record today to be 1:20 faster, or 2:01:37... Which is what the record was a month ago... The trends lead pretty much exactly to where we are today, and in another 5 years we'll have a record legal sub 2:01, probably around 2:00:40 or so by somebody. Not because of new shoes, but because times have been trending faster forever as more people train hard and take cracks at the old record, pushing the limits of what people can run. Every world record people wonder if that's the fastest a human can run, and yet those records constantly get broken. 2:02:57 8 years ago was not the peak of human marathon running.
The shoes make a difference of at best a minute to these top runners in the world, possibly less, definitely not more. Just like shoes in the 1980's probably weren't as good as shoes in the year 2000.
What your post fails to mention is PEDs. I think Kipchoge is clean. I don't htink the marathoners you mentioned were clean. Kipchoge was over 2:04 pre-super shoes. Now his consistency was unprecedented - so I think he could have run 2:03 pre-super shoes. Check out these times he ran in non-super shoes 2:04:05, 2:05:00. 2:04:11. 2:04:42. Then he ran 2:04.00 in Berlin with a super shoe prototype with the sole flapping out.
If you think the shoes only help a minute, you've never worn the shoes. Put Kipchgoe in regular flats, put everyone else in super shoes and I don't think Kipchoge wins another marathon in his life.
I do think I should contact WA about invalidating the 2016 Olympic results. Totally bogus what went on there. We worry about cold medicine and yet people were wearing bongo shoes camoflouged to look like regular flats.
I do think I should contact WA about invalidating the 2016 Olympic results. Totally bogus what went on there. We worry about cold medicine and yet people were wearing bongo shoes camoflouged to look like regular flats.
I don't know why you always bring up the fact that they were trying to "disguise" the vaporfly prototypes. Look at every single marathon since then that has coincided with a new shoe release. Nike releases the same colorway for all of their shoes for their athletes to wear so it is clear that they are all wearing the same brand regardless of the model of shoe. Best example is the 2020 Olympic trials where all the Nike shoes were black and neon green. I remember the commentators on TV as well as a lot of the people on this board saying everyone was wearing the new Alphafly when in fact a lot of them were wearing the older Next% with the same colorway. It's marketing, not some elaborate conspiracy theory.
It can't really 4 - 5 % for the elite. 5% would be 6 minutes in a two hour marathon, and we already had a few sub 2:04 marathons before the carbon shoes came.
World records pre and post carbon shoes (road: 2016; track: 2019)
Marathon 2:02:57 (’14) – 2:01:09 (’22) – 2.6 s/km in 8 years Half marathon 58:23 (’10) – 57:31 (’21) – 2.5 s/km in 11 years 10000 m 26:17.53 (’05) – 26:11.00 (‘20) – 0.7 s/km in 15 years 5000 m 12:37.35 (’04) – 12:35.36 (’20) – 0.4 s/km in 16 years 3000 m 7:20.67 (’96) – unchanged 1500 m 3:26.00 (’98) – unchanged 800 m 1:40.91 (’12) – unchanged 400 m 43.03 (’16) – unchanged 200 m 19.19 (’09) – unchanged 100 m 9.58 (’09) – unchanged Marathon 2:17:42 (’05) – 2:17:01 (’17) – 1.0 s/km in 12 years Half marathon 1:06:25 (’07)-- 1:05:16 (’20) – 3.3 s/km in 13 years 10000 m 29:17.45 (’16) – 29:01.03 (’21) – 1.6 s/km in 5 years 5000 m 14:11.15 (’08) – 14:06.62 (’20) – 0.9 s/km in 12 years 3000 m 8:06.11 (’93) – unchanged 1500 m 3:50.07 (’15) – unchanged 800 m 1:53.28 (’83) – unchanged
Nobody - neither Nike nor anybody else - has claimed that super shoes give 4-5% better times. They claimed they give 4-5% running economy improvement.
I do think I should contact WA about invalidating the 2016 Olympic results. Totally bogus what went on there. We worry about cold medicine and yet people were wearing bongo shoes camoflouged to look like regular flats.
I don't know why you always bring up the fact that they were trying to "disguise" the vaporfly prototypes. Look at every single marathon since then that has coincided with a new shoe release. Nike releases the same colorway for all of their shoes for their athletes to wear so it is clear that they are all wearing the same brand regardless of the model of shoe. Best example is the 2020 Olympic trials where all the Nike shoes were black and neon green. I remember the commentators on TV as well as a lot of the people on this board saying everyone was wearing the new Alphafly when in fact a lot of them were wearing the older Next% with the same colorway. It's marketing, not some elaborate conspiracy theory.
Those weren´t super shoe prototypes. They were customized Zoom Streak 6.