Please, somebody put me out of my misery and tell what I’m doing wrong in the marathon.

I don't believe in taking gels early. You don't need them and they might make you use up your glycogen reserves too quickly. Save them for later in the race.

2 x 36km long runs?

you need to go long more often

you need to callous your legs to the pounding. Very slow runs. 3+hour runs, time on feet.

What splits did you run for each KM the first 10K? There are a lot of ways to get to the first half in 1:37 - some are better for the second half than others.

Your 10k time is much better than your half marathon.

Just to clarify, I ran 7 long runs of 28km+, 2 of them as long as 36km.

I’m surprised you only said 7 long runs over 18 weeks? Was this right, what are you saying is a long run.

I would have expected a minimum 13 mile / 2 hour + almost every week for your pace going up to 3.5 hours. Also with a lot of marathon and threshold paces throughout the 18 weeks.

The most important marathon training is the long run and the fast long threshold run, which I’m sure the plan gave you.

I assume for what you are talking about a strength/endurance issues when your muscles fibres are fatigued and can’t keep cycling through and bounced you to your easy pace only. Or you just ran too quick for your training.

The other options is you taper just didn’t work, and you did too much. The only thing you can look at what went well and what didn’t go well and try to tick off and fine what works for you.

Good luck, marathon is an interesting one as it’s just a little bit longer than we are all comfortable running at marathon pace.

KMs 1-22 here:

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The one at 5:00 was a quick pee break

What were your Tue/Thur workouts and how were you doing your marathon pace miles, i.e. miles within longer runs (if so how many) or standalone longer efforts.? How many times were you running a week?

Generally speaking one LT2/marathon pace type workout with around 16km volume of work, the other alternating each week between VO2 max and true threshold LT1.

The marathon pace in long runs were things like 4x5km, or 6km, 5km, 4km, 3km, 2km with one K float. I regret not having done long runs with long extended periods of marathon pace.

I remember your last thread, but forget some of the details--was it you that did the big 20-mile progression 3 weeks out?

Yesterday's weather was awesome for two hours, but then the clouds parted, the sun came out, and it got hot. It felt like there were only 2 or maybe 3 water stops from 24-35k (then like one every km to the finish, lol). Assuming you started in corral C, I'm guessing you ran into the wall right around when things were heating up. It happens. Curious what shoes you were in?

I'm afraid to say it, but a slightly bigger base may he the easiest way (assuming you have time) to improve you next marathon. If you can get to 110-120km steady, you are not going to crash and burn if you go out conservatively--maybe lose 5-10s a km, but not a 10 minute positive split.

Don't worry about your HRV dropping during taper. Check this out for some background:

link.medium.com

Heart rate variability (HRV) during taper

https://medium.com/@altini_marco

Research and practical insights

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What were you doing between marathon blocks? Were you keeping up the mileage?

For me I started to run marathons well when I'd put together a 2-3 years of consistent training. No necessarily doing big mileage the whole year, but consistently 40-50ish miles with regular long runs (maybe doesn't have to be every week but try to do them at least every 2 weeks). From that point I would typically do a marathon training block where I'd increase the mileage and try to do a long run every week. If my legs were feeling ok I'd do a fast finish for every long run.

I had the same issue as you for my first three marathons. I was hitting a wall right around 16-19 miles in each of my three races. Weather was the primary factor, but I could have salvaged the races if I paid closer attention to my body in the early miles.

A better training plan (a lot more hill work, doubles on workout days (easy recovery run (3-5 miles) + workout (it adds some weekly volume, but I also think doubles on workout days helps improve strength/fatigue resistance without pushing the body crazy hard)), taking easy days EASY with hard days HARD), core work three times a week + strength two times a week, and monitoring HR during the race helped me overcome the late marathon fades. I stopped focusing exclusively on pace and ran based on what my body was telling me. I use a HR monitor during the race to keep myself honest. I'm not married to the data, but I use it to ensure I'm not overcooking with HR spikes, or running too hard too soon, etc.

After monitoring HR during workouts and long runs I became adept at figuring out exactly how hard I can push my HR at certain points in the workout before I run into issues, which translates to where I should be at various points in the marathon. (I run workouts based on pace unless my HR tells me it's too ambitious.) I go into the marathon with a fairly good idea of what I'm capable of running, but let my body dictate pace during the race.

Using HR can be slightly conservative and I may leave seconds on the table in some marathons, but it's more effective than hitting a wall and losing minutes.

A final thought is that pace groups can be helpful, but they can also interfere with what you're trying to accomplish. They tend to be massive groups, where you have to pay close attention to tripping, etc. While the pacer tends to be fairly consistent, the runners in the group often spend a ton of energy navigating within the group and failing to run anything close to the tangents. Water stations in the group are often a nightmare, where runners have to slow way down while people are darting in and out, and then speed up to get back to the group. A lot of wasted energy. Also, if you're married to the pace group you often ignore issues that can be worked out before they result in bonks.

You need to do some paddle boat training.

Sounds like you are running overly explosively; either that or you are lugging explosives in your pockets.

I would second adding heart rate training. (get a chest strap, wrist monitors suck)

I'm always surprised how few runners use heart rate training when it is an essential training metric in basically every other endurance sport (cycling, rowing, triathlon, etc...). Heart rate training is the best metric we have to understand the stress your body is experience running at a given pace.

If you monitor your heart rate, pace and perceived effort over a training cycle you will develop a much stronger intuition of what a sustainable pace is. Heart rate training will probably tell you to run slower than you'd like on your easy days (I think that is why most runners dislike it) but it's not wrong.

I don't like to race with a heart rate on all of the time but it can be very useful in the early stages of a marathon. (For me if I average even 3 bpm high for the first hour, I get cooked and suck in the last 30 mins)

Mileage and Long Runs got me an adequate marathon time of 3:17 in rainy conditions.

I averaged 48 miles a week and my two longest runs in the build up were 22 miles. I also had two 20 milers and an 18 miler as well. Safe to say, I was ready to cover the distance. In one of the long runs, I cut down from 8:30 pace to 6:40 pace. And with my long runs averaging 8:05 pace, I knew that 7:30-something would be a wise choice and I could safely push hard the last couple of miles if I needed to.

My race felt effortless. I took 4 gels, all 40-45 minutes a part and hit most water stations.

I would say that a semi-decent runner needs to have his/her mileage be an average of 60mpw if you want to sniff 3:10 and 70mpw+ to get that sub-3. This is purely anecdotal evidence and observation from talking with other runners.

And what I meant to say above is that you really need to have a good understanding of what your marathon pace is. Analyze your long runs and have an honest conversation about what you are truly capable of.

I ran a 1:34 half two months before the race and the general formula is your half marathon time x 2 + 10 minutes = Marathon Time. Of course, you need the Mileage and Long Runs to pull this off.

For me: (1:34 + 1:34 + 10 = 3:18) So you can see why I ended up running 3:17.

i've done about 10-12 marathons and died at about km30 in 2 of them. both times it was due to another race (hard efforts) the week before and not enough time to recover. the same would apply for a taper that didn't work for any other reason, or if you weren't sleeping and eating properly.

i've found the longer distances I run, the fewer problems I have in the shorter distances, even if I don't taper so well. this might sound obvious but your muscles really do remember. so if you really don't want to crash in the next marathon, run a 75k or 100k race, then go and do a marathon 4+ weeks later.

Too many training plans/coaches prescribe too many long runs with too much MP work. Next cycle, take your long runs slower, maybe sprinkle in some pace towards the end of a select few.