Faith Kipyegon so close!

word of advice wrote:

casual obsever wrote:

I noticed you didn't answer the question, but instead asked me one.

For the record, I never said I know what can be run by a clean athlete.

But, we know for a fact that a select few athletes have run 3:50. IF doping gives you 2 - 3% as claimed by several scientists, then we are talking about 5 - 7 seconds. Let's take the lower border, 5 seconds.

Then, if the 3:50 ladies are clean, then they could run 3:45 doped. I consider that unlikely, as no one, doped or clean, came even close to that.

On the other side, even if all top performances are doped, then 3:55 could be run by clean athletes.

The standards for what might seem achievable clean or otherwise are not set in stone. They evolve as athletes improve. Not too long ago the idea of a woman running close to 50 seconds flat, or even under 50 seemed far-fetched. Just because 3:45 does not seem possible for a female athlete today does not mean that standard will still apply in 20 years.

Mondo, Crouser, Warholm, Gidey, Sybney have all pushed up against the boundaries of their respective events. I just don't happen to believe that all great performances and improvements in the sport are fueled entirely by doping.

Ghost1 wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

She's doping to run 3.50. Exceptional talent at a young age does not mean she can run the times that only likely dopers can run in their prime.

Faith Kipyegon: Very unlikely that she is doping, but of course I can’t prove it and of course you cannot prove it at the other end either. I invite you to go to Kenya (as I have done and quite recently back in April and May 2022 ), and to observe her training in Eldoret (Kipchoge stadium, get there early around 6 AM) and Kapsabet. She trains with male runners who are quite a bit faster than her and those male runners can run around 339 or faster for 1500 m and the pacer in training requires a quasi daily basis commitment so it is not astonishing that she can run 3:50.00.

It is sad that you immediately think that certain African runners who produce great times are doping. You need to rethink things from the Kenyan perspective and think about the extraordinary motivation these people have about running and the intrinsic and innate talent they have as well which produces these kinds of results.

There are not many economic options for most Kenyans who live in the Rift Valley and their motivation to become top runners is through the roof. What astonishes me in Kenya is that even middle level runners who have very little chance to get races in Europe or overseas continue to devote their lives to running for a number of years and living a very humble and poor lifestyle with minimal food quality (basically Ugali / maize and green veg for example). I’ve seen this time again and it does not really compute, but that is Kenya for you.

Armstronglivs wrote:

Ghost1 wrote:

Faith Kipyegon: Very unlikely that she is doping, but of course I can’t prove it and of course you cannot prove it at the other end either. I invite you to go to Kenya (as I have done and quite recently back in April and May 2022 ), and to observe her training in Eldoret (Kipchoge stadium, get there early around 6 AM) and Kapsabet. She trains with male runners who are quite a bit faster than her and those male runners can run around 339 or faster for 1500 m and the pacer in training requires a quasi daily basis commitment so it is not astonishing that she can run 3:50.00.

It is sad that you immediately think that certain African runners who produce great times are doping. You need to rethink things from the Kenyan perspective and think about the extraordinary motivation these people have about running and the intrinsic and innate talent they have as well which produces these kinds of results.

There are not many economic options for most Kenyans who live in the Rift Valley and their motivation to become top runners is through the roof. What astonishes me in Kenya is that even middle level runners who have very little chance to get races in Europe or overseas continue to devote their lives to running for a number of years and living a very humble and poor lifestyle with minimal food quality (basically Ugali / maize and green veg for example). I’ve seen this time again and it does not really compute, but that is Kenya for you.

You left out the fact that doping is rife in Kenya. Maize isn't a high performance drug.

rekrunner wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

You left out the fact that doping is rife in Kenya. Maize isn't a high performance drug.

I wonder how much doping there needs to be before it can be considered "rife".

I also wonder, are fast Kenyan performances "rife", in the women's 1500m? What does history say?

Looking at the top 100 women performances, for reference, Jenny Simpson comes in at #100 at 3:57.22 -- more than 7 seconds slower than the world record. Decent, but she is not Laura Muir.

Faith Kipyegon has run an amazing 14 of these top-100 performances, over a period of 10 years since 2013, when she ran 3:56.98.

Helen Obiri has run another 1 -- a 3:57.05 in 2014.

And ... that's it.

How about within 7 seconds of the Chinese Qu Yunxia -- Jackline Maranga comes in at #115 running 3:57.41 in 1998.

Looking further down to all sub-4:00's (or 426 performances) I can only find 3 more: Naomi Mugo, Winny Chebet, and Viola Kibowatt.

How many of these 6 Kenyan sub-4 women have been clearly linked to doping?

Armstronglivs wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

I wonder how much doping there needs to be before it can be considered "rife".

I also wonder, are fast Kenyan performances "rife", in the women's 1500m? What does history say?

Looking at the top 100 women performances, for reference, Jenny Simpson comes in at #100 at 3:57.22 -- more than 7 seconds slower than the world record. Decent, but she is not Laura Muir.

Faith Kipyegon has run an amazing 14 of these top-100 performances, over a period of 10 years since 2013, when she ran 3:56.98.

Helen Obiri has run another 1 -- a 3:57.05 in 2014.

And ... that's it.

How about within 7 seconds of the Chinese Qu Yunxia -- Jackline Maranga comes in at #115 running 3:57.41 in 1998.

Looking further down to all sub-4:00's (or 426 performances) I can only find 3 more: Naomi Mugo, Winny Chebet, and Viola Kibowatt.

How many of these 6 Kenyan sub-4 women have been clearly linked to doping?

How ironic. When you turn up to defend someone we know they must be doped.