Norwegian Training Approach - Threshold Focused

I understand everything very well. I get paid to observe and measure things in my profession using very expensive equipment. I get it.

I have never mentioned watch averaging. The 1-second values stored to the FIT file are not reliable enough. If you start sprinting and the power does not respond for 5 seconds, the measurement is no good to me. If it's good enough for you, great. I want better.

I agree with us not derailing the thread. My last post as well. :)

btw from strava it seems that the oldest ingebrigtsen is now doing short speed reps. i thought it was a no no for him (because of old injuries)

I have similar fitness, based on your hr data I would recommend you to slow down more at AM session 5x6min on treadmill till HRavg below 145 at least.

I am running now on treadmill (job at sea), just now did continuos tempo 40min @MP pace, and my HRavg only 146, my max HR=183.

Once you get lactate device, you will be surprised how slow you should perform double threshold sessions compare to your earlier feelings without device...

Good recommendation, especially for "treadmillers" doing double threshold programm I found like this:

Tuesday:

AM session: 5x6min/1min rest at pace threshold speed minus 1 km/h

PM session: 20x400m/30s rest at pace threshold+0.5 km/h, if feeling good, last reps at pace threshold +1km/h

Thursday:

AM session: same as Tuesday

PM session: 10x3 min (8 reps if feeling bad, 12 reps if feeling good) at pace threshold speed.

Also there is a variation:

Tuesday PM session move to Thursday PM, so there is a choice: start week with the fastest double threshold and end of the week finish with slower one, or vice versa.

Saturday: here should be "X element" session.

Keep in touch, as I want to include in my marathon preparation starting from next week "6 weeks block with double threshold all weeks on treadmill including X element as a hill workout", my avg weekly mileage now is approaching 100 miles

Good tip - will bear in mind

That was exactly the point I was making about Snell. He was an 88m runner doing 20M long runs, and people on here are always quick to point to that. But just because he was successful doing that, doesn't mean it was necessary.

800m not sure where 88m came from..

I wasn't talking about the specifics of training. I was just asking why wouldn't you want diminishing returns? Obviously negative returns is bad but why is diminishing returns?

Great thread so far. For someone who generally trains 1x/day and is not able or capable of doing double threshold at this point, what would be recommended if that person wants to train by the same principles used by the Norwegians? I was thinking of trying something like:

M- easy

T- 5x6 minutes between HM and M pace

W - easy

Th - 25x1 min on, 30 seconds off at 10k pace/effort

F - easy

Sa - hills, something similar to the Ingebrigsten hill session

Su - moderately long run

Thoughts on this schedule? Would aim for about 70 mpw in total volume. Not sure if the threshold sessions should be harder since only doing them 1x/day, but I think for me that’s probably enough for now. I’m not an elite athlete after all, but would love to crack 15 minutes in the 5k.

Agree a very good thresad but the art of coaching is finding what works well for the athletes you coach or with what you are doing in your own training.

I used threshold training in the early 90's and had some good results and now use it with my athletes. 5x6 min or 25x400 are not magic sessions nor are hills. When you combine threshold running, hills, and the occasional fast session results happen as long as an athlete is running a lot and is injury free.

Good luck!

This is a really interesting thread.
Does anyone know much about their supplemental gym routines? They are impressive at staying clear of injuries with such an enormous training load.
I know they schedule these after the long run and in-between the two threshold days which is interesting as that goes against the easy days easy principle.

Would love to know the kinds of things they do in the gym to stay functioning well.

I took risk and started just this week doubles with 100miles and classic long run...🤪 for me now also is big question regarding "long run", as it reached to 2.5 hours... may be I will be blowed off soon... I started more conservatively: around 2.0mmol at AM session and around 2.8mmol at PM session.. but this long run... how to adapt it correctly...🤔

In the podcast, another runners suggestions, to inject doubles with 2 weeks on/2weeks off for adaptation and then to continue every week... any ideas?

Haven't Jakob said somewhere that he has never run further than 20k for the long run?

I think Gjert has said that before. He's stated a few times that at this point in the Ingebrigtsens' running careers, they're pretty well aerobically developed and they only use the easy running for recovery from the harder sessions.

He's said that for athletes running 1500-5000, it doesn't make sense to 'lose' a workout session in favor of a long run, as it is harder to recover from with diminishing returns when compared to more threshold or the anaerobic work that has a more direct impact on their event-specific fitness. I think that's pretty heavily debated but it also checks out considering that the double threshold sessions push their total volume significantly higher than a lot of athletes training for the same events that use a traditional long run.

...and

What to do with long runs if it is favorable for distances from 10k to ton, does anybody make experiments with doubles and classic long run?

Why not following their hobbyjogger brother regimen (from nowhere to 1h30->1h15 HM and 33's 10k in a year) ? 3 threshold sessions/week (~35-40' volume each) + 3 easy days + 1 easy long run. Aim for <2.5mmol during intervals.

There seems to be some misunderstanding on here regarding HR and lactate. Typically when you start measuring lactate you have been working out too hard, priming your glycolytic energy system. Thus it feels ridiculously slow to run at paces where you do not tap too much into this system. You slow your pace and start questioning if this is right for you. Then, as your training progresses (if you are able to stay disciplined and put your ego aside) your lactate will get lower and lower at the same intensity.

This leads to the inevitable no/low lactate at a high heart rate. So to those of you who think that HR is a good guide; it doesn't work like that. What you can learn though is how it *feels* to run at the right intensity. Watch the Norwegian triathletes and see how they predict their lactate levels, normally being within 0.1 mmol. This obviously means that you need a lactate meter.

If you have some running friends you could get together and buy a lactate meter to share. This is cheaper than doing a test and would help you in

1) getting an understanding of your individual infliction points, and

2) learning how to use lactate to slow down on days you feel fresh and push on days you feel tired.

1) is obviously super important as you never want to run your easy run over 1mmol.

Hope this helps.

PS: English isn't my native language so try make sense of things if I have expressed myself poorly

What I have experienced and seen in my own running career, in my coached runners training and in many top class runners training it's enough to run one lactate threshold workout every week to reach all runners main goal, to improve! 🧙‍♂️🧙‍♂️🧙‍♂️

Not sure I understand? Are you saying that there is no/little correlation between HR and lactate?