I don't think this is going away unless female competitors band together in protest. If they are apathetic towards this, or even accepting of it, fine. Personally, I don't think it's a fair playing field but if the people in the event feel otherwise, I'm not wasting my time telling them they're wrong.
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dumbassMF wrote:
Reode wrote:
You disrespect humans in the name of fairness? Hypocrite. Good riddance.
Good riddance? Just stuff it.
If they don't force their way into places they know they don't belong, then no one will criticize them or even talk about them.
You are exactly what your username says you are. You are not worthy of interacting with the intelligent.
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Reode wrote:
dumbassMF wrote:
Good riddance? Just stuff it.
If they don't force their way into places they know they don't belong, then no one will criticize them or even talk about them.
You are exactly what your username says you are. You are not worthy of interacting with the intelligent.
Yet you have demonstrated that you are far dumber.
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These are hollow wins just like all of Caster's wins. Nobody regards them as the winner of the ladies {insert event}, its just seen as a laughable farce where the biological women had no chance.
I'm completely sympathetic to the plight of any intersex athlete but that sympathy does not extend to the point of "well, just take all the ladies medals".
But, as someone else noted, until the biological women refuse to line up, we'll be stuck in this holding pattern.
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#46
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Ghost of Jim Ryun wrote:
Wow that was ridiculous. A world record is gonna have to go down before they do something about this. Narrowly avoided Niyonsaba last week.
Time wasnt ridiculous just the gap. Felix has run well under that winning time. But yea, appearance isnt reliable but....sus for sure.
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kartelite wrote:
Ignorant wrote:
Call me ignorant, but why would someone be allowed in other events when they're not 'women' enough for the 400m?
This is well known among people who follow the sport, but DSD athletes are not allowed at 400m-1500m (I think mile as well, not sure about 2000m) but are able to compete in the shorter and longer championship distances due to “lack of evidence” on their inherent advantage. It was really just a way to stop DSD athletes from sweeping the podium in the 800m since that’s where they were dominating but to maintain some semblance of compromise. If it had been in the 200m or 5000m, then they would have found the necessary evidence for those distances.
I know someone (physician scientist) who works on the very testing for wada. Even he recognizes that DSD is an advantage at every distance! Are women and men generally equal above 1500? 5000? 10000? Not even close. Its just stupid that we cut it off at 800. Have male biology, even if you suppress, gets the inherent advantage of being a man for decade(s). You can workout harder, stronger bones, muscular advantages and the list goes on. Why are we not calling for the heads of state for these governing bodies? Are we too emotionally attached to SebCoe to think he could be incompetent? Other sports clearly have same issue, but lets just worry about track. If track can "get right", maybe others will follow. I also blame the athletes, never hear women calling this out or certainly not enough. There should be chatter on instagram and everywhere else when Nyonsaba wins.
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RunRagged wrote:
One more time wrote:
Oh come on. This is getting so obvious
LRC Note. We changed the title of the thread. It was initially entitled, "Just catching up. A man wins womens 200m in Ostrava . (Video)" As a courtesy, please do not call an interest woman a man. You can make the argument that in your mind they are more biologically male than female."
Note to LRC:
The lingo in new thread title you chose - "A suspected intersex women wins 200m..." is as inaccurate as it is illiterate. The athlete in this instance, Aminatou Seyni of Niger, is not "a suspected intersex women" [sic].
Seyni confirmed to the press in 2019 that Seyni is ineligible for women's middle-distance events because Seyni has one of the disorders of sex development covered by the so-called "Semenya rules" of the IAAF/WA that came into force in 2019 after the Court of Arbitration for Sport issued its decision in the Caster Semenya case challenging those rules.
As everyone at LRC HQ should know by now, these rules apply only to athletes who have ALL the following physical characteristics:
male XY sex chromosomes, not female XX chromosomes;
male gonads, testes - not female gonads, ovaries;
natural testosterone levels in (or above) the normal adult male range (7.7-29.4 nmol/L), not in or anywhere near the much lower normal adult female range (0.02-1.68 nmol/L);
functioning male androgen receptors and physiology that enable the affected athletes to utilize the male amounts of testosterone that their testes pump out as males typically do.
In other words, all the athletes subject to the IAAF/WA current DSD rules for women's competition have disorders of sex development solely affecting male sex development.
Seyni, Semenya and all the other runners currently competing in women's track whose status as XY DSD athletes has been confirmed by WA, the IOC, the press and themselves or their coaches or sports federations (Niyonsaba, Wambui, Mboma, Masilingi) have been through the male mini puberty of infancy and the longer male puberty of adolescence. In the process, they all acquired the myriad physical characteristics that give males significant advantages over females in nearly all sports.
In elite track, athletes endowed with the male advantage generally outperform female athletes by 10-12%.
In 2019 at the World Championships in Doha, Seyni told the press, "yes I was forbidden to participate in the 400m... I am obliged, it is because of the new rules of the IAAF. As for Caster Semenya, I am obliged to do like it."
A better and more accurate thread title would say something like:
Confirmed XY DSD athlete wins women's 200m in Ostrava...
Or just plain
XY DSD athlete wins women's 200m in Ostrava...
OK, well said. Why did she compete then? Is this outside IAAF or something?
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Grassrunner wrote:
I don't think this is going away unless female competitors band together in protest. If they are apathetic towards this, or even accepting of it, fine. Personally, I don't think it's a fair playing field but if the people in the event feel otherwise, I'm not wasting my time telling them they're wrong.
And to clear if you grow your hair long we suspect less.
Do Jamaicans have better weights? Because ETH and SAFP dont look anything like Prandini, Thomas, Felix, or even some of the buffer american sprinters. Its all quite confusing.
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For a track side perspective, we decided to get the opinion of our trackside reporter Lauren. Lauren, what did you think of the winner’s move in the final straight?
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Think Again wrote:
One more time wrote:
Oh come on. This is getting so obvious
LRC Note. We changed the title of the thread. It was initially entitled, "Just catching up. A man wins womens 200m in Ostrava . (Video)" As a courtesy, please do not call an interest woman a man. You can make the argument that in your mind they are more biologically male than female."
The changing of the thread title to "suspected intersex" shows that whoever changed the title either doesn't know much about track or is purposely being less than honest.
There is nothing "suspected", It's a known fact. The runner has already been confirmed as intersex which is why they were banned from running the 400 which used to be their main event.
Watching a man in a womens race. This is why track is a joke. Among all the doping that goes on. What are we even watching at this point?
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RunRagged wrote:
Reode wrote:
These people are being treated as if they are sub human and many of you folks are showing your true colors. You folks know who you are and you are complete failures as people to be treating these people this way.
No, they are not being "treated as they are sub human." They are being treated as human beings born with disorders of male sex development who are taking advantage of their rare, male-only medical conditions to compete in the wrong sex category - where they can easily trounce female athletes who are being denied a fair shot from the get-go.
They are being treated as human beings who have the intelligence to understand the information given to them by medical experts and their advisers, information which has been spelled out by WA and the Court of Arbitration for Sport: athletes with their particular kinds of disorders of male sex development have the same exact kinds and scale of unfair physical advantages over female athletes that males with normal sex development have.
They are being treated as human beings grown-up enough to know the fundamental differences between the two sexes, and with enough common sense to grasp why there are separate divisions for males and female in sports in the first place.
They are being treated as human beings with enough moral fibre basic human decency to know that the way they are behaving is unethical because it is patently unfair for anyone with male advantage to be competing in women's sports.
They are being treated as human beings who have the mental and emotional capacity, and enough regard for other human beings, to come to terms with the the fact that they were born with rare disorders of male sex development without taking it out on women.
They are being treated as human beings with enough "sportsmanship" to grasp that female athletes shouldn't be made to suffer and pay in order to compensate them for being born with partially undescended testes and anomalies of urogenital anatomy.
Other than their urogenital anatomy developing atypically during gestation in utero, there is nothing physically wrong with athletes like Seyni and Semenya. They are robustly healthy, in fact.
The people who are treating these athletes as "lesser" and are marginalizing them are those who believe that males who were born with their testes in a place other than the scrotal sac and without normally-developed penises should be shunted aside and cast out from the company and sports competition of boys and men because they can't accept that males with DSDs are bona fide members of the male sex who deserve to be treated as the equals of other males.
The people who are dehumanizing these athletes are the ones "othering" them by regarding them as deficient males and saying they should "run and play with the girls."
Very well said. Unfortunately you can't have a reasonable discussion with someone like reode. They will simply recite absurdity in an effort to virtue signal. This repels moderates and results in tit-for-tat politics like we are seeing with states one-uping each other with new abortion laws. By rejecting common sense, they will usher in a red wave.
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I don't think your dyslexic "improvement" to the thread makes any difference. The level of offense taken by responders is the same either way.
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One more time wrote:
Oh come on. This is getting so obvious
LRC Note. We changed the title of the thread. It was initially entitled, "Just catching up. A man wins womens 200m in Ostrava . (Video)" As a courtesy, please do not call an interest woman a man. You can make the argument that in your mind they are more biologically male than female."
Rojo changed the title of my troll thread to an even worse title. But there’s no denying Seyni has more muscle mass than Christian Coleman. There is no intersex here.
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gdzfgvdz wrote:
These are hollow wins just like all of Caster's wins. Nobody regards them as the winner of the ladies {insert event}, its just seen as a laughable farce where the biological women had no chance.
I'm completely sympathetic to the plight of any intersex athlete but that sympathy does not extend to the point of "well, just take all the ladies medals".
But, as someone else noted, until the biological women refuse to line up, we'll be stuck in this holding pattern.
Umm... I don't happen to remember any mass boycott of races against Semenya, Niyonsaba and Wambui. So can you tell us how those athletes are no longer competing in 400-1500m if there was no mass boycott?
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Armstronglivs wrote:
The perplexity and even the derision that these competitors evoke by competing in women's events shows the manifest failure on the part of those who run the sports to deal with this issue.
It todays society, who is going to stand up and say "this shouldn't be allowed?"
T&F is already barely a blip on the radar, and a focused (and manufactured outrage) if they were to straight out say "no more" could put T&F in even worse shape.
I could absolutely see certain locations say that meets aren't allowed if "rights" are being violated. Think to how major sports in the US have boycotted Georgia and North Carolina over similar issues recently.
The affected parties (the other runners) are the ones that will have to make a united stand, no one else is going to be able to do it for them.
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bigmig19 wrote:
RunRagged wrote:
Note to LRC:
The lingo in new thread title you chose - "A suspected intersex women wins 200m..." is as inaccurate as it is illiterate. The athlete in this instance, Aminatou Seyni of Niger, is not "a suspected intersex women" [sic].
Seyni confirmed to the press in 2019 that Seyni is ineligible for women's middle-distance events because Seyni has one of the disorders of sex development covered by the so-called "Semenya rules" of the IAAF/WA that came into force in 2019 after the Court of Arbitration for Sport issued its decision in the Caster Semenya case challenging those rules.
As everyone at LRC HQ should know by now, these rules apply only to athletes who have ALL the following physical characteristics:
male XY sex chromosomes, not female XX chromosomes;
male gonads, testes - not female gonads, ovaries;
natural testosterone levels in (or above) the normal adult male range (7.7-29.4 nmol/L), not in or anywhere near the much lower normal adult female range (0.02-1.68 nmol/L);
functioning male androgen receptors and physiology that enable the affected athletes to utilize the male amounts of testosterone that their testes pump out as males typically do.
In other words, all the athletes subject to the IAAF/WA current DSD rules for women's competition have disorders of sex development solely affecting male sex development.
Seyni, Semenya and all the other runners currently competing in women's track whose status as XY DSD athletes has been confirmed by WA, the IOC, the press and themselves or their coaches or sports federations (Niyonsaba, Wambui, Mboma, Masilingi) have been through the male mini puberty of infancy and the longer male puberty of adolescence. In the process, they all acquired the myriad physical characteristics that give males significant advantages over females in nearly all sports.
In elite track, athletes endowed with the male advantage generally outperform female athletes by 10-12%.
In 2019 at the World Championships in Doha, Seyni told the press, "yes I was forbidden to participate in the 400m... I am obliged, it is because of the new rules of the IAAF. As for Caster Semenya, I am obliged to do like it."
A better and more accurate thread title would say something like:
Confirmed XY DSD athlete wins women's 200m in Ostrava...
Or just plain
XY DSD athlete wins women's 200m in Ostrava...
OK, well said. Why did she compete then? Is this outside IAAF or something?
200m is not a restricted event under the DSD rule. That could change after this season, depending on how fast Mboma runs.
And to anyone who thinks it would take the new WR to change the rule, Semenya did not break the WR.
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Just Another Hobby Jogger wrote:
gdzfgvdz wrote:
These are hollow wins just like all of Caster's wins. Nobody regards them as the winner of the ladies {insert event}, its just seen as a laughable farce where the biological women had no chance.
I'm completely sympathetic to the plight of any intersex athlete but that sympathy does not extend to the point of "well, just take all the ladies medals".
But, as someone else noted, until the biological women refuse to line up, we'll be stuck in this holding pattern.
Umm... I don't happen to remember any mass boycott of races against Semenya, Niyonsaba and Wambui. So can you tell us how those athletes are no longer competing in 400-1500m if there was no mass boycott?
Presumably, boycotts of races would benefit women’s T&F so it’s unfair that only the people that compete directly against there athletes should be expected to make a sacrifice. It would be like a MLB strike involving only one team.
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