You seem to think the two groups are similar in terms of suspiciousness simply because they both had fast people. I would totally disagree.
Fisher being an all-time US great isn't surprising. He was an all-time great at the US HS ranks who broke 4:00 in HS.
Rupp was good in HS but his coach had ties to Athletics West and his coach coached Mary Slaney when she was popped. Plus Rupp couldn't break 4:00 for much of college and then became a 3:50 miler. His improvement was much more 'suspicious'. Plus we don't have photos of a Nike lab document showing Fisher was a testosterone supplement in HS. Plus we've never received any reports that Jerry gave the massage guy a night off before big races or told his athletes to lie about what treatments they've been getting.
Mo Farah's development from World final also-ran to world beater also was much more suspicious than what we've seen from any male pro in the BTC.
Plus Schumacher clearly very quickly moved away from the grey area and Dr. Brown once he realized what it was. He had a very public falling out with the man (Salazar) he used to almost co-coach with.
Now, Shelby's positive test is obviously a big step in the other direction.
This is all bull, Rojo. Farah’s “leap” pales in comparison to BTC
Farah made a world championship final before joining Al Sal and was a sub 13 min dude. Going from sub 13 to world beater with a new coach is totally within realm of possibility.
Meanwhile, Solinsky went from 13:12 to 26:59 debut & 12:55.
Mo Ahmed went from 13:34 in college to 12:48. There’s interviews from his Wisconsin days where he said he put in 18 weeks in a row at over 100 mpw. So it’s not like he wa undertrained.
Grant Fisher went from 13:30 in 2019 to 26:33 in 2022 (2 x 13:16).
Woody Kincaid, Teg never broke 13:30 in college.
And that’s on the male side of things, Shelby dropped like 80s from her college PR and we see how that turned out.
Now, with all that said, I don’t think either group is doing anything that the other isn’t.
Jerry didn’t know about Dr. Brown? Again. We like to give Jerry passes as if he’s some dumb coach. Didn’t know of brown, never heard of nandrolone.
why are they still coaching a banned athlete then?
It is not a one size fits all situation or answer that I will provide. The answer is coercion to some varying degree.
The Shelby situation was unique because it felt like it was a political bomb launched by World Athletics at the Team USA/Nike to "even things out" for past doping bans where the inquisition was inspired by protests stemming from the Western Hemisphere.
It is a complicated situation.
1) Jerry was already out of character to be addressing the media. That's nothing like the real Jerry. That was coerced.
2) Speculating the same root of said coercion presumes innocence and continues to defend Shelby. If Shelby goes down then a domino effect takes place. Again, Schumacher is wedged between his employer and the right thing to do. So, again, on some level he is coerced to continue coaching her and, also, Jerry may even "want" to believe her which is attributed to his naivete.
I know that is not the most convincing answer but that's how I see it and it is likely pretty accurate. Complicated situation, Jerry not able to make executive decisions on the subject.
Meanwhile, Solinsky went from 13:12 to 26:59 debut & 12:55.
Solinsky ran the 13:12 several weeks after college. It is my understanding that Jerry had to convince the "I can do it on my own terms" Solinsky to move out of a college housing basement room, buckle down and focus on the bigger picture. Solinsky was capable of that time the entire spring but coming off the mishap at NCAA xc, he was timid and not always able to go all out. He lost to Rupp in a meet that spring so the focus was on winning.
It is no surprise Solinsky broke 13 minutes. The 27 minute barrier was a surprise to everyone because it hadnt been done before but, make no mistake, Solinsky was comparable to Ritz or Kennedy as a junior in HS.
Mo Ahmed went from 13:34 in college to 12:48. There’s interviews from his Wisconsin days where he said he put in 18 weeks in a row at over 100 mpw. So it’s not like he wa undertrained.
...
Woody Kincaid, Teg never broke 13:30 in college.
1) Mo Ahmed is someone who did not drink alcohol due to religious reasons as of his college days. I would think that is the same Mo Ahmed we have now. Back then, he was a real inspiring, almost perfect human specimen. He was just a real genuine kid, nice guy, well spoken, intelligent and someone ultimately devoted to his faith more so than running. I dont see Mo Ahmed swearing ever, therefore I dont see Mo complying to grey area doping or beyond.
2) Tegenkamp - well, Tegenkamp did do something. He played with science after a surgery of some sort in 05-06. He bulked up noticeably between 09/2005 and 02/2006. Previously he was stickly thin. But to Teg's defense, in college he was fragile, couldnt handle mileage and also injured every other week it seemed. Seriously, most of his success in college came from his talent.
Mo Ahmed went from 13:34 in college to 12:48. There’s interviews from his Wisconsin days where he said he put in 18 weeks in a row at over 100 mpw. So it’s not like he wa undertrained.
...
Woody Kincaid, Teg never broke 13:30 in college.
1) Mo Ahmed is someone who did not drink alcohol due to religious reasons as of his college days. I would think that is the same Mo Ahmed we have now. Back then, he was a real inspiring, almost perfect human specimen. He was just a real genuine kid, nice guy, well spoken, intelligent and someone ultimately devoted to his faith more so than running. I dont see Mo Ahmed swearing ever, therefore I dont see Mo complying to grey area doping or beyond.
2) Tegenkamp - well, Tegenkamp did do something. He played with science after a surgery of some sort in 05-06. He bulked up noticeably between 09/2005 and 02/2006. Previously he was stickly thin. But to Teg's defense, in college he was fragile, couldnt handle mileage and also injured every other week it seemed. Seriously, most of his success in college came from his talent.
You missed the point.
None of your reasons and justifications for their improvement matters at all. Rojo said no one on BTC had improved as much as Mo. That’s false.
The point was that Mo was a world championship finalist prior to coming to Alberto. He wasn’t also some Jo Schmoe ad the narrative would have you believe.
Meanwhile, all the BTC guys were essentially 13:30+ guys.
1) Mo Ahmed is someone who did not drink alcohol due to religious reasons as of his college days. I would think that is the same Mo Ahmed we have now. Back then, he was a real inspiring, almost perfect human specimen. He was just a real genuine kid, nice guy, well spoken, intelligent and someone ultimately devoted to his faith more so than running. I dont see Mo Ahmed swearing ever, therefore I dont see Mo complying to grey area doping or beyond.
2) Tegenkamp - well, Tegenkamp did do something. He played with science after a surgery of some sort in 05-06. He bulked up noticeably between 09/2005 and 02/2006. Previously he was stickly thin. But to Teg's defense, in college he was fragile, couldnt handle mileage and also injured every other week it seemed. Seriously, most of his success in college came from his talent.
You missed the point.
None of your reasons and justifications for their improvement matters at all. Rojo said no one on BTC had improved as much as Mo. That’s false.
The point was that Mo was a world championship finalist prior to coming to Alberto. He wasn’t also some Jo Schmoe ad the narrative would have you believe.
Meanwhile, all the BTC guys were essentially 13:30+ guys.
The difference is that nearly all the BTC guys were COLLEGE 13:30 guys. I'm not sure why it's so surprising that they improve after becoming professional runners and not having to worry about school and slow NCAA championship races. Farah was in his late 20s with many many years of prior professional experience.
Using improvement as a proxy for doping is worthless anyway. There's always too many other variables to consider.
None of your reasons and justifications for their improvement matters at all. Rojo said no one on BTC had improved as much as Mo. That’s false.
The point was that Mo was a world championship finalist prior to coming to Alberto. He wasn’t also some Jo Schmoe ad the narrative would have you believe.
Meanwhile, all the BTC guys were essentially 13:30+ guys.
The difference is that nearly all the BTC guys were COLLEGE 13:30 guys. I'm not sure why it's so surprising that they improve after becoming professional runners and not having to worry about school and slow NCAA championship races. Farah was in his late 20s with many many years of prior professional experience.
Using improvement as a proxy for doping is worthless anyway. There's always too many other variables to consider.
College or not. Those are outlier improvements. At this time in 2020, GF’s PR was 13:30. Now he’s run 26:33 closing in 13:10. I’m not saying he’s doping. I’m saying we need to acknowledge that these are outlier performances especially for people hailing from premier collegiate programs. If they had gone to Wayne State, it might be more palatable to say, or even expected that they left things on table. But these well-coached guys.
Side note: Just imagine if every 13:30-35 dude in college became a sub 13/27 dude as a pro. Imagine how strong the US would be.
Anyway, back to Mo. Mo got 7th at the 2009 World Championships as a 13:07 dude. Then ran 12:57 in 2010. Linked up with Alberto. Then ran 12:53 and won worlds in 2011. Nothing about that says suspicious.
I get it though. The narrative is the narrative.
Finally, I agree with you. Using improvement as a proxy for doping is worthless especially when it’s not applied universally. In fact, in some cases, there may be more pressure for a runner who has been stagnant or regressing to dope - to keep a contract or to be allowed to stay in a training group. So, there is a world where people dope to return to previously achieved natural form.
My argument was to highlight Rojo’s constant reframing of the BTC fire vs the NOP smoke.
Again, my take: BTC doesn’t have a monopoly on morality. Shelby proved that. The one thing I do know, is that some people, but not all, are doping. It may be Grant, may be Mo (either one), might be Galen, it may all or it may be none of them. But some professional runners are doping.
Another side note: we like to think of as Americans as “cleaner” than other countries when it comes to doping. But, our culture is one of getting over - much more so than a lot other countries. I’d say the propensity for our athletes to cheat is as high as any other country ‘cept for state sanctioned doping places like China & Russia.
1) Mo Ahmed is someone who did not drink alcohol due to religious reasons as of his college days. I would think that is the same Mo Ahmed we have now. Back then, he was a real inspiring, almost perfect human specimen. He was just a real genuine kid, nice guy, well spoken, intelligent and someone ultimately devoted to his faith more so than running. I dont see Mo Ahmed swearing ever, therefore I dont see Mo complying to grey area doping or beyond.
2) Tegenkamp - well, Tegenkamp did do something. He played with science after a surgery of some sort in 05-06. He bulked up noticeably between 09/2005 and 02/2006. Previously he was stickly thin. But to Teg's defense, in college he was fragile, couldnt handle mileage and also injured every other week it seemed. Seriously, most of his success in college came from his talent.
You missed the point.
None of your reasons and justifications for their improvement matters at all. Rojo said no one on BTC had improved as much as Mo. That’s false.
The point was that Mo was a world championship finalist prior to coming to Alberto. He wasn’t also some Jo Schmoe ad the narrative would have you believe.
Meanwhile, all the BTC guys were essentially 13:30+ guys.
First of all, 13:30 at the end of college really isn't crazy at all. Pre super spikes 13:30 - 2016 thru 2019 10 guys in the whole NCAA broke 13:30 pre conferences (and Schumacher recruited 2 of them). Saying "they were just 13:30 guys" is like saying "Schumacher got some of the very best recruits from the whole NCAA."
On Ahmed, people are constantly under selling him. He made it to London 2012 aged 21 while still in college and came 9th in 2013 World Champs 10,000 as a 22 year old collegiate athlete. He's publicly said that he chose Wisconsin cause they were the only school that said they would prioritize his making Canadian teams and long term development over NCAA performance.
25 year old Ahmed came 4th in Rio, just 2s off of Farah in 1st. 25 year old Farah didn't make the finals in Beijing. Ahmed had the faster PB at that age too (13:01 vs 13:07).
He doesn't drink but he definitely swears though.
All that nitty gritty said, NOP definitely had way more smoke on multiple fronts than BTC, but the fact that BTC had a banned athlete and collectively has rallied around them and then just shut up can't be over looked. Still say there was more controversy following Salazar as he had what Schumacher had (a banned athlete) and worse, but still it isn't a great current look.
Mo Ahmed went from 13:34 in college to 12:48. There’s interviews from his Wisconsin days where he said he put in 18 weeks in a row at over 100 mpw. So it’s not like he wa undertrained.
...
Woody Kincaid, Teg never broke 13:30 in college.
1) Mo Ahmed is someone who did not drink alcohol due to religious reasons as of his college days. I would think that is the same Mo Ahmed we have now. Back then, he was a real inspiring, almost perfect human specimen. He was just a real genuine kid, nice guy, well spoken, intelligent and someone ultimately devoted to his faith more so than running. I dont see Mo Ahmed swearing ever, therefore I dont see Mo complying to grey area doping or beyond.
2) Tegenkamp - well, Tegenkamp did do something. He played with science after a surgery of some sort in 05-06. He bulked up noticeably between 09/2005 and 02/2006. Previously he was stickly thin. But to Teg's defense, in college he was fragile, couldnt handle mileage and also injured every other week it seemed. Seriously, most of his success in college came from his talent.
"He is such a nice guy, so he can´t be doping". Completely ridiculous argument.
The difference is that nearly all the BTC guys were COLLEGE 13:30 guys. I'm not sure why it's so surprising that they improve after becoming professional runners and not having to worry about school and slow NCAA championship races. Farah was in his late 20s with many many years of prior professional experience.
Using improvement as a proxy for doping is worthless anyway. There's always too many other variables to consider.
College or not. Those are outlier improvements. At this time in 2020, GF’s PR was 13:30. Now he’s run 26:33 closing in 13:10. I’m not saying he’s doping. I’m saying we need to acknowledge that these are outlier performances especially for people hailing from premier collegiate programs. If they had gone to Wayne State, it might be more palatable to say, or even expected that they left things on table. But these well-coached guys.
Side note: Just imagine if every 13:30-35 dude in college became a sub 13/27 dude as a pro. Imagine how strong the US would be.
Anyway, back to Mo. Mo got 7th at the 2009 World Championships as a 13:07 dude. Then ran 12:57 in 2010. Linked up with Alberto. Then ran 12:53 and won worlds in 2011. Nothing about that says suspicious.
I get it though. The narrative is the narrative.
Finally, I agree with you. Using improvement as a proxy for doping is worthless especially when it’s not applied universally. In fact, in some cases, there may be more pressure for a runner who has been stagnant or regressing to dope - to keep a contract or to be allowed to stay in a training group. So, there is a world where people dope to return to previously achieved natural form.
My argument was to highlight Rojo’s constant reframing of the BTC fire vs the NOP smoke.
Again, my take: BTC doesn’t have a monopoly on morality. Shelby proved that. The one thing I do know, is that some people, but not all, are doping. It may be Grant, may be Mo (either one), might be Galen, it may all or it may be none of them. But some professional runners are doping.
Another side note: we like to think of as Americans as “cleaner” than other countries when it comes to doping. But, our culture is one of getting over - much more so than a lot other countries. I’d say the propensity for our athletes to cheat is as high as any other country ‘cept for state sanctioned doping places like China & Russia.
If you make a list of American T & F athletes who are convicted dopers it will be a very long list.
I will also say that if/when a BTC athlete tests positive or gets popped, its definitely on the athlete. Jerry would likely cut ties if he found out and be focused on doing the "right thing", not letting bad things infiltrate the group. Again, he is naive to a fault and would lose respect for people who he knew doped.
His actions defending Shelby, attacking doping authorities in response, letting her hang around the club during altitude camps, and keeping her on the public BTC roster for 8 months after CAS rendered their judgment on her case make your statement demonstrably wrong.
Rojo called Farah's improvement suspicious. Surely a running journalist isn't so ignorant of Farah's story?
For years Mo was notoriously lazy. He ate like crap. He enjoyed the late night hours. He was physically weak and had sloppy form. And even with all of that, he showed flashes of brilliance, as Canova has said here many times. For example, he was sick for quite a while and still ran immediately following a 12:53. That race was BEFORE he joined Salazar in 2011.
With Salazar, Farah bought into the life of a professional athlete. And he improved his strength and speed greatly. There is the story of Salazar taking Farah to a hill for a 200m repeat. Farah's gap between his flat 200 time and hill 200 time was something like 5 seconds, where 2 seconds was common for the top men. They fixed this weakness and spent years focusing on his speed and strength.
no, i have not missed that controversy. its clear that there is a cloud of suspicion. the optimist in me wants to separate that from my desire to root for a guy who has done some incredible things (and is likely to notch one or two more incredible achievements as well). its difficult as a fan to find the right line.
my point with the thread, and something that is ever more prominent now that fisher (and others) are putting up such impressive times is that there is also a cloud over BTC now as well, off the back of shelby's ban.
i'm not looking for bias, not seeking to fight or argue. i want to root for everyone. i have struggling to understand how one group could be suspicious and the other not. i am struggling to understand how the suspicions of a group trickle down to an individual or two. it is very difficult as a fan to get this right!
There was a thread about Galen Rupp which outlined how, among some other very minor things, his "grey area" infringements and the general suspicion around alsal have lead many to struggle to root for him.
i've seen plenty of people also extend that same mis-trust to BTC post-burritogate. I'm curious, however, why it seems to be less prominent. Maybe its the shorter duration of the overall suspicion? Maybe its because the brojos love Jerry and censor the board to his credit? Or is it something else?
I'm curious, because BTC is putting up some crazy numbers this spring, and it raises my excitement for the outdoor season (worlds!). i want so badly to believe Rupp and the BTC folks are clean, and i want so badly to root for them all! what do you think?
I woke up thinking about this today after the reflecting on the 10k AR
Dr. Brown served more of Jerry's runners than Al. Anyone who sends runners all the way to Texas to get thyroid shots is a cheater. Ban Jerry for life and Shalane with him.
Most people are NOT more suspicious of Galen then BTC.............only whackos on LRC.
BTC has been popped for ANABOLIC STERIODS.
Galen is the most tested athlete in the history of T&F, I'd guess. A four year investigation into his coach and team determined that "no athletes received an unfair advantage." What else do we need to lay out here? The case is closed.
You seem to think the two groups are similar in terms of suspiciousness simply because they both had fast people. I would totally disagree.
Fisher being an all-time US great isn't surprising. He was an all-time great at the US HS ranks who broke 4:00 in HS.
Rupp was good in HS but his coach had ties to Athletics West and his coach coached Mary Slaney when she was popped. Plus Rupp couldn't break 4:00 for much of college and then became a 3:50 miler. His improvement was much more 'suspicious'. Plus we don't have photos of a Nike lab document showing Fisher was a testosterone supplement in HS. Plus we've never received any reports that Jerry gave the massage guy a night off before big races or told his athletes to lie about what treatments they've been getting.
Mo Farah's development from World final also-ran to world beater also was much more suspicious than what we've seen from any male pro in the BTC.
Plus Schumacher clearly very quickly moved away from the grey area and Dr. Brown once he realized what it was. He had a very public falling out with the man (Salazar) he used to almost co-coach with.
Now, Shelby's positive test is obviously a big step in the other direction.
For what it's worth Rojo, I like you and I generally think your assessments are fair. Certainly this assessment of Galen is a good one. I've been saying this for years. Galen was a great athlete coming out of high school but he wasn't some prodigal son we were all waiting for. Every year out of high school there is a wave of top tier athletes. Galen was among them sure. But he wasn't set apart the way that Mary Cain, Katelyn Tuohy, and Hobbs Kessler were. he was just one among the wave that comes every year.
So the whole time I kept thinking, why him? There were so many guys in his year. Gavin Coombs, Matt Withrow, Stuart Eagon, Ahmed Haji, Josh McDougal, Ryan Deak, Victor Gras, Ben True...
As I watched Galen's meteoric ascent, And as each of his contemporaries (with some exception) faded, I couldn't help but wonder...had any of those guys lived in Portland Oregon and went to Central Catholic, would all these results belong to them instead?
But where I part ways with you is when you add Shelby's test in as an afterthought.
It's not an afterthought. It's a positive test. A positive test from another athlete who had a suspicious progression in the sport. From 2015-2017 Shelby was a contender with some good results but fairly mid pack globally. In college, much like Galen was in high school, she was one of the best in her year, but she was no grand stand out the way Jenny Simpson was. Then in 2018, she was unbeatable. Unbeatable in the 1500. Unbeatable in the 5K. Hell, even unbeatable in a 10K on the grass. Her only falter was to Colleen after she doubled up the 2 mile in world indoor. Colleen was far more rested.
Is Jerry doing sketchy things specifically the way Alberto did? No. They might just have a different style. Denying you know what nandy is and then making everything seem like some grand injustice? Suspish. Continuing to sketchily coach her while she's banned--as Shalane alluded to? Also suspish.
The truth is, the BTC has a cloud around them now. Maybe for different reasons but a cloud nonetheless. How come so many athletes come out of college with decent careers and then explode as pros? Elise Cranny? Courtney Frerichs? Shelby? Karissa Schweitzer? All were great athletes but none were ones that I looked at when they suited up as pros and thought "they are going to be huge!" But its just big time results after big times results after big times results. How come we don't see that sort of consistency coming out of any other group?