How much can I improve my 800 with more mileage

If your 400m is accurate, your best bet is to work on speed. You aren’t gonna get much faster than 2:04-2:05 without improving that 400m.

Thanks, good point I shouldn’t worry too much about mileage until I get the base speed first!

With the basic speed that you have you ultimately could run around a 1:55. That would involve some high level training/coaching though, not just through increasing your mileage.

That’s very encouraging to know that is even possible, thanks and I get your point it would take an enormous amount of training

* Sixty metres to 800m athletes need to weight train. Weight training may be beneficial to athletes, 1500m to Marathon.

* Weight train x 5 days per week.

* Two of five days, leg days.

Marathoners may have the luxury of bragging how they can race sub-2:05 Marathon and cannot free weight squat body weight. As an 800m runner, you need to be able to free weight squat at least 150% of body weight.

Basic speed is already good enough to break 2min. (I've broken 2 and never touched 25 seconds for a 200.) Your endurance is your weakness. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't keep working on your speed, too.

Here is what I would do:

Keep the mileage more consistent at 40-50.

Keep up plyos 1xper week and weights 2-3xper week (2xweek lower 1xweek upper) Lower body lifts should be after workouts.

Do threshold work. Based on your 10k time this should be around 6:35 pace. Start with 6-8x800m reps w/45 second rest and build up the rep length to a straight 4-mile tempo run. Threshold pace should come down naturally as your progress your endurance, but do not force it.

Do speed work. 150s/200s/300s/400s at 800-1,500m race pace. 800-2,400 meters of work in a session. 1-2 minute recovery (or a 200-400m jog) is fine.

Do sprint work. 4-6x8 second hills transitioning to flat sprints. All-out effort, 1-3 minute recovery.

Take your easy days as slow as necessary to recover. I mean well over 8 minute pace likely.

Do a long run 60-80 minutes (build it up gradually).

Sample week:

Monday: 4-6 miles easy+4x6 second hill sprints

Tuesday: 2 mile warmup, 6x1,000@threshold (around 4:00-4:10 for you) w/200 jog recovery, 2 mile cool down+ lift

Wednesday: 4-6 miles easy

Thursday: 2 mile warmup, 12x200@1,500 down to 800 pace w/200 slow jog recovery, 2 mile cool down+lift and/or plyos

Friday: 4-6 miles easy

Saturday: 10 miles easy/progressive

Sunday: optional 4-6 miles easy

If your 400m is 57mid, your 800m PR actually seems about right. If you want to drop the 800, the shorter events need to come down, and mileage is not the answer to that.

I'd talk to people familiar with the USTFCCCA sprint coaching model. Acceleration/absolute speed/speed endurance are among the areas you need to develop which are all much more intense and require much more precise planning in the workout/weekly/monthly training design than many realize.

Good chance your best event is longer.

I suggest 30 miles/ week here with the short term goal <4:20 1500m.

Improve the 1500, you'll improve the 800m. But as stated earlier 2:05 is more realistic than <2 without a jump in 100-500m capability.

Yes, long term, regardless of distance, you need to develop the speed side to get much further. Hard to run 800m much faster than 10x your running start 100m best, or 2.3x your 400m.

As for the influence of added mileage generally, much depends on where you are at for volume when asking and what your strengths are.

Few true 800m runners are better at 80 - 100 miles/week than 40 - 50 miles/week.

He's got 25 second 200m speed. He's fast enough to run 53 at worst 54 in the 400. What he's severely lacking is aerobic strength and a bit of speed endurance.

He can work on the latter when he establishes a base with the plan I laid out for him.

A few things:

1) Your PR's all seem to line up pretty well across the board. I think you can probably run a faster 400 than you have on your list but it makes sense because you probably don't actually run all out 400's on a regular basis.

2) "Should I run more miles?" Is a loaded question without knowing what type of training you're currently doing. If you're just going on 3-5 mile runs 5 days a week, then no, you don't need more miles. You need speed training. If you're doing 2-3 workouts a week and running 2-3 easy days, then maybe you need more specific focus.

3) Most 2min HS 800m runners run somewhere between 15-25 miles per week. These are 400-800 runner estimates, not guys that specialize in the mile and 3200, but also run the 4x800. So you don't NEED to increase your mileage.

There are tons of different energy system charts but the one stuck in my head for the 800 is:

Aerobic (endurance): 40%

Glycolytic (extended sprint): 55%

Alactic (5 sec burst): 5%

This suggests that endurance training is less important for the 800.

4) Getting to 2:05 from where you currently are is very possible this year if you focus your training for the 800 (which is very different from 5k training). Breaking 2 minutes from where you are will likely take a long time.

5) I saw an earlier post of sample workouts to do and I would politely disagree. If you're running 20 miles per week now, getting up to 50mpw while throwing in tempo runs and 10 mile progression runs is the opposite of training for the 800. Plus, if done correctly, increasing your mile from 20mpw to 50mpw will likely take 3-4 months, which is unnecessary if you’re training for the 800.

If you want to get under 2:05 this season (Spring), and are fine ignoring training for the longer races while doing it, a really simple plan would be something like:

(I am pasting this from an email I sent to one of my former HS athletes that decided to walk on to her college track team in the Spring a couple years ago. It's not perfect for you (or her), but it's a starting point, and I made some slight changes as a read through it. No, I did not create an entire workout plan during my lunch break lol)

2 weeks running reorientation period:

Run 4-6 easy 20 to 30 min runs a week. Do weights/general strength 2-3 days. And do 6x100m strides (around 15 sec for you) on the days you don't lift.

4 weeks of specific prep: Example:

Monday: 1 mile warmup, dynamics/drills, 4x400 @ mile pace, mile cool down, lift weights

Tuesday: dynamics and drills, 30 minute easy run, and strides

Wednesday: 1 mile warmup, dynamics/drills, 8x100m at 200/400 pace, 1 mile cool down, lift

Thursday: dynamics, 20-30 minutes easy, strides

Friday: dynamics, 30 minutes easy, strides, and weights

Saturday: 45 minute long run.

Sunday: Off

Week total = 23 to 25 miles (including warmup and cool down miles)

2-4 weeks of pre competition training: (still not racing yet)

Monday: 1 mile wu, dynamics 6x400 @ mile goal pace (or switch it up with 4x600 or 3x800), cool down, lift

Tuesday: Dynamics, 30 min easy, strides

Wednesday: 1 mile warm up, dynamics, 8x100 @ 200/440 pace or 3x (50m, 100m, 150m) all at 200/400, cool down, lift

Thursday: 20-30 minutes easy, strides

Friday: 1 mile up, dynamics, 8x200 @ 800m pace, mile cool down, lift weights

Saturday: 35-45 min run

Competition period: Pretty much the same as above, but only lift twice and do 2 workouts

Monday: 1 mile WU, dynamics, 8x300 @ mile goal (of do a speed endurance ladder 200, 300, 400, 600, 400,300,200), cool down, lift

Tuesday: Dynamics 30 min easy run, strides

Wednesday: 1 mile up, dynamics, 6x50m @100%, cool down, weights

Thursday: 30 min easy + strides

Friday: Pre race routine (easy run + strides if you don't have one)

Saturday: Time trial

The above is something I thought an 18yo girl (that ran 4 years HS track and cross) would actually do on her own unsupervised. Again, it's not perfect, but as a 27yo novice runner, that probably doesn't have a coach, and probably works full time, this is something you can do in your spare time. Also, do some research and change the workouts around. This is just an example/guide. Have some fun with it.

The key is alternating: Threshold, recovery, pure speed, recovery run, speed endurance, recovery run, off. You can switch the order. You can piggyback workouts if you have a busy week. You can skip threshold one week and do more speed endurance. It's a balance. Find out what works for you. Lift on workout days, not recovery days, so you allow your legs to actually recover on recovery days. That’s really it.

Good luck with your training. Hope you crush it.

Thanks guys really good advice and I’ll be implementing these plans going forward.

At the moment I had been doing 1 speed session and 1 tempo a week. Speed sessions were generally longer intervals, nothing shorter than 400m and up to 1kx6

Tempos were between 10-14km

Recently I’ve been racing 1500/800 as the 6 month season started where I am

3-5 gym sessions a week including weights

I get your points though I need a consistent sprint workout, long run and shorter interval reps where I feel the lactic like the speed endurance ladder suggested

Great suggestions Seppo also and I reckon I can slowly get to 40mpw whilst adding the other elements in

Not long before I’m past my best years so gotta get on it! :)

Thanks all!

Seppo Kaitenenn wrote:

He's got 25 second 200m speed. He's fast enough to run 53 at worst 54 in the 400. What he's severely lacking is aerobic strength and a bit of speed endurance.

With 26s 200m speed, he is not going to run a 53; maybe 56, but that's about it.

The longer distance times are not very good compared to the 800m time: increasing mileage would lead to improving the mile/5K and 10K times by a lot, but I don't think it will have any meaningful impact on the 800m time.

The HS Track Coach plan is more or less what I would also recommend if to run a fast 800m this spring.

Good point, can’t neglect getting sprint times quicker, I feel like I was progressing nicely with them last year and then the season ended. Hopefully can lower them all slightly

The 200 was -0.8 wind and I funnily enough felt like I died in the last 10-15m so it can be improved to a lower 25 with more consistent sprint training over an extended period

I think you have the speed to run a faster 800m (like sub 2:05) based purely on the sprint times, especially if you are able to run a 200 close to 25. I would not be concerned about your top-sprinting speed (although it is important to maintain it). The problem is your speed endurance, i.e. the ability run close to all out for 2 minutes. Perhaps you are more of a fast-twitch type: with a 2:08 800m time, your 1500m time should be close to 4:20-4:24.

For a fast 800m 30-40 miles/week are plenty. Running a lot of 6-8min miles is not going to help you much in doing a half-mile at 4min/mile, what you need to train is getting comfortable at a 4 min/mile pace.

Seppo Kaitenenn wrote:

Keep up plyos 1xper week and weights 2-3xper week (2xweek lower 1xweek upper) Lower body lifts should be after workouts.

I’ve seen this suggestion before. What’s the benefit of lifting on a workout day? More rest between hard days? And should it be right after the workout or effectively a double later in the day?

some runner on letsrun wrote:

Seppo Kaitenenn wrote:

Keep up plyos 1xper week and weights 2-3xper week (2xweek lower 1xweek upper) Lower body lifts should be after workouts.

I’ve seen this suggestion before. What’s the benefit of lifting on a workout day? More rest between hard days? And should it be right after the workout or effectively a double later in the day?

Following the "keep your hard days hard and your easy days easy" mantra. If you do your workout and then your lift in the same day, that means the next day you can take it truly easy. Saunter around for 30–60 minutes, a few strides, a little mobility, and actually recover. If you lift the day after your workout, you'll have a harder time recovering for your next hard session. As far as timing goes, work with what you got. Ideally, you'll have a few hours and some food/hydration between working out and lifting, but ya gotta do what ya gotta do, so sometimes I'll go straight into a lift after slamming a snack.