I could careless if someone is trans, gay, lesbian, non-binary, etc…. But a person born male, competing in female sports is cheating. Call me transphobic if you want. Anyone that thinks that, that is transphobic is not intelligent
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I could careless if someone is trans, gay, lesbian, non-binary, etc…. But a person born male, competing in female sports is cheating. Call me transphobic if you want. Anyone that thinks that, that is transphobic is not intelligent
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SoTrue wrote:
The future of women sports is men.
Thread over.
Who will be the next Nike sponsored Trans Athlete?
the world turned upside down wrote:
It is only a matter of time before a man competing as a woman defeats a major American female star athlete on the Olympic stage in front of a huge American audience. It will take a man beating Katie Ledecky, Sydney McLaughlin, Simone Biles (although I doubt a man could beat a woman in women's gymnastics any more than a woman could beat a man in men's gymnastics), Mikaela Shiffrin, Serena Williams, or some other famous American woman for people to wake up. Some guy swimming on the UPenn swim team isn't even a slight ripple in the water. A man beating Ledecky in Paris would be a tsunami and will bring about a return to common sense.
At least there is no risk for a competitor getting her skull fractured in swimming, unlike MMA and Fallon Fox.
I don't disagree, but it is going to take a man beating Serena Williams in the US Open final AND THE VISIBILITY OF IT for the general public to take notice. Shows how much the general public feels about Olympic sports.
Women have no fear attacking old white men, but have real fear of attacking young white men.
This is a WOMEN'S issue to be resolved by WOMEN.
None of you posters on this thread are WOMEN. Speaks volumes.
Lenny Leonard wrote:
dhe8282uehdh wrote:
This is another topic that has lost all nuance and has become black and white. It is not. I'm conflicted myself.
I'm 100% for trans rights. They should be recognized as the gender they request, shouldn't be discriminated against in school, employment, or legally.
At the same time I recognize that there are biological advantages they have that makes it unfair, in the realm of physical competition, to allow them to compete against biological females
Believing that trans females don't belong in the woman's division of sport isn't the same as saying they aren't legitimate females.
The reason you feel conflicted is because your last sentence reveals the mistake in your stance.
If you don't think transfemales belong in the women's division of sport, then it means you don't think they are legitimate females. You can't have it both ways. So you have to make a choice about which side you are on. Thats not my decision to make for you, but once you do that, you won't have this "conflict" anymore.
For me, I see transfemales as females in all aspects of their lives, even sports. It makes complete logical sense to me to just be consistent in my view of a person's identity.
It does not contradict at all. Gender is fluid, biological sex is static outside of edge cases.
In everyday life biological sex doesn't matter much, gender does. Gender determines your pronouns, choice if restroom, etc. When there is a reason for biological sex to matter, like athletic competition, conception, etc then that should override gender.
This stuff needs to stop.
came to say wrote:
People on the left are the most evil despicable people in the world. The only way they can live with their extreme immorality is by pretending. They either pretend this is normal or pretend the things they voted for had nothing to do with this outcome. Every thing they claim to love they actually hate. In this case equal rights for women.
Coming from a fellow right-winger, this is a terrible thing to say. "Most evil despicable people?" Really? Though it may be correct to say they are wrong, this is not the right way to go about it.
Be Nice wrote:
came to say wrote:
People on the left are the most evil despicable people in the world. The only way they can live with their extreme immorality is by pretending. They either pretend this is normal or pretend the things they voted for had nothing to do with this outcome. Every thing they claim to love they actually hate. In this case equal rights for women.
Coming from a fellow right-winger, this is a terrible thing to say. "Most evil despicable people?" Really? Though it may be correct to say they are wrong, this is not the right way to go about it.
Agreed. This type of talk is part of the problem, not the solution.
Options Trader wrote:
OozmaKappa wrote:
Being forced to compete with men in sports is a violation of womens rights.
You wanted liberal and Godless policies, and not you have them..enjoy
This swimmer does not define centrists, democrats, or even progressives any more than MTG defines Rs (I hope).
Very few people, of any stripe, with an understanding of athletic competition accept this as legitimate. I'm a former R, now right-center conservative but registered independent and Biden voter. I don't recognize this tool as anything but a dude as far as swimming goes. God bless her, she can do what she wants with her life and I'm hoping she finds a rewarding future. But she can't legitimately compete against biological women. Sorry, pal.
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dhe8282uehdh wrote:
This is another topic that has lost all nuance and has become black and white. It is not. I'm conflicted myself.
I'm 100% for trans rights. They should be recognized as the gender they request, shouldn't be discriminated against in school, employment, or legally.
At the same time I recognize that there are biological advantages they have that makes it unfair, in the realm of physical competition, to allow them to compete against biological females
Believing that trans females don't belong in the woman's division of sport isn't the same as saying they aren't legitimate females.
Agree, and think many who are silent have this take.
Trans people are discriminated against, and their lives are highly politicized. Unfortunately this means that a nuanced take is hard to come by, and even if one is offered it is quickly slotted into the black/white binary. This is why many people with more nuanced beliefs do not speak about it - they know their beliefs will be misrepresented. I know this is the case for myself.
I think it is important to be clear on why we have categories (age, sex, disability) in sport, and that the rationale for this is very context dependent. In some contexts (eg. community sport), the purpose is more participatory. The goal is to be inclusive, socialize, get fit, improve oneself. Thus, categories such as age, sex, disability are less important. This is self-evident; competitions are often mixed. There is some notion of fairness sometimes (eg. min number of women during active play in mixed team sports, individual awards based on sex as in a road race), but overall the result is not the most important thing. In these situations, it is clear that trans athletes should compete as they wish and not be excluded or subjected to conditions about how their body is. I don't agree that it's trivial for a trans person to compete in their sex category if they are opposed to this (degrading, possibly unsafe depending on country), and I don't think that the drug/surgery requirements are trivial either (access issues, may want to be able to have kids, sexual pleasure, adverse medical issues from hormone therapy). Sports are socially and culturally important and no one should be made to feel unwelcome or unable to participate safely. Where possible (eg. individual sports) having non-binary categories is a good idea; have seen some road races do this and think it is positive.
In more elite contexts (Olympics, pro leagues), the result is more important; we are attempting to reward excellence and it is understood that certain characteristics such as sex, disability, age have a tremendous, systemic (any sport) impact on results Nobody has a particular right to be an elite athlete nor to a particular classification in elite sport. For example, from a legal perspective I am classified as disabled in most countries as I have an autoimmune disease. However, I am not eligible to compete in the Paralympics because it has been decided that my medical condition does not have so considerable an impact on my ability to do sports that I should need a different category. Though my condition is no doubt a disadvantage in sport on average, I would agree that it is not so extensive that I should need separate classification. It is already established that one's legal or social classification does not necessarily need to match one's elite sport classification. Thus I think for elite sports it is fair to impose rules on sex classification in a similar way.
Where the murky part lies is what is in the in-between areas. I'd lean towards post-secondary leagues like the NCAA being more on the elite side since there is money involved even if it is indirect (scholarships). High school, even though it could be elite in some cases, should probably be left out - trans kids may not be able to access gender affirming treatment and so shouldn't be excluded on that basis, and the purpose of HS sports on the elite side is mostly for recruiting to higher leagues (ie. trans kids wouldn't be displacing anyone). In elementary school/younger kids sex doesn't matter very much since most haven't hit puberty and at this level it should be about participation and skill development.
At any rate, the athlete in question is following the NCAA rules and does not deserve any hate. You can disagree with the rules, but she had done nothing wrong and is not a bad person for doing what she is allowed to do.
Your take is laughable. No it does not only matter in pro sports. No female athlete should have to compete with biological males and women are entitled to their own sports. Period. Regardless of whether you think sports at a non pro level are important. Who frankly cares what you think is important? And better yet, why should we give a damn about some mentally ill person with gender dysphoria? The cultish obsession and self-importance regarding such a trivial issue is bizarre. Oh no, a boy who identifies as a girl wont be allowed to mistreat and bully biological girls for their own self-fulfillment. Oh the humanity. Lol. Too. Bad.
Lets be honest womens sport is a charade. Any average guy can obliterate the best female. Its time to put an end to 'females at birth' in sports.
astro wrote:
Your take is laughable. No it does not only matter in pro sports. No female athlete should have to compete with biological males and women are entitled to their own sports. Period. Regardless of whether you think sports at a non pro level are important. Who frankly cares what you think is important? And better yet, why should we give a damn about some mentally ill person with gender dysphoria? The cultish obsession and self-importance regarding such a trivial issue is bizarre. Oh no, a boy who identifies as a girl wont be allowed to mistreat and bully biological girls for their own self-fulfillment. Oh the humanity. Lol. Too. Bad.
Why is it laughable? Many community level sports (eg. rec league soccer, hockey) are already mixed, which is a pretty explicit demonstration that it's not about the result. Even those that aren't are more about people getting fit and engaging socially in their community. Nobody should get told they can't do the women's community soccer league because they're trans lol. Who cares?
If people are getting paid or the result is the primary motivation of the competition, then yes, physiology as determined by broad categories such as sex, age, disability does matter as an equity issue. But this is not a universal property of all sports competitions. The overwhelming majority of sports is not done in a performance oriented lens.
This isn't a radical position. WADA anti-doping rules only apply in more elite sport contexts. Nobody is banning you from your rec soccer league because you are taking prescription meds without a TUE or even microdosing T/HGH so you look swole in your Tinder dps lol.
Yep. This is pure misogyny. It would mean the elimination of female sports. While this person cavalierly dismisses non-pro female sports as not mattering, think in running about the extraordinary amount of work and dedication these young women put into high school running. Now imagine saying none of that matters and should be overridden because some egotical, self-centered, narcissistic jerk who was born biologically male insists on competing against you and does not care about anyone else or even basic principles of fairness and fair play. And this is supposed to be some high-minded stance? It is absurd. The year Tuohy broke the NXN record for example she would have been 151st in the boys race. That's the reality of biology.
Yes laughable. Basically you cannot deny how unfair this is so you tediously go for plan B, that non-elite female sports are just not important, the feelings and rights of female athletes be damned, and that it is more important to placate the egotism of trans athletes because who cares? Well the female athletes care and anyone concerned with fairness cares and your claims about what does and does not matter are pitiful. Do you have a plan c?
To paraphrase Norm McDonald….I believe one of the criteria for competing in women’s athletics is that you’ve never previously been a man.
Similar to if you’re going to compete as a professional runner you need to have human legs.