Suicidal PAAVO training cult

No colleges train under this system as far as I know.

Yep, there's a good reason for that.

g-unit wrote:

No colleges train under this system as far as I know.

Perhaps the problem people have with the PAAVO system is that, due to lack of readily available written publications, the system seems a bit mysterious, and even verging on unjustified by any physiological evidence. It also uses jargon that does not fit into maintstream training categories like v02/LT/etc.

For example, I haven't found a reasonable explanation as to why the system uses a weekly "all-out three mile" with an additional mile tacked on, followed the next day by a tempo-like run. Isn't this essentially a weekly-time trial? And isn't running another hard training day the next day then contradict the importance of running that all-out effort the previous day?

It all casts doubts that there is a well-reasoned philosophical under-pinning to this system. It indeed would be ihelpful if there was at least a website explaining the training philosophy and physiological evidence.

Does anyone know if such a site exists?

It all casts doubts that there is a well-reasoned philosophical under-pinning to this system. It indeed would be

helpful if there was at least a website explaining the training philosophy and physiological evidence.

Does anyone know if such a site exists? >>

No, if the details of PAAVO were known then the "secret" would be out, and there would no longer be any need to have series of all-day clinics to share the "secret". And "ol Marsh" wouldn't make as much money.

Who is in charge, L. Ron Hubbard?

Just to clear things up, there are basicly 3 time trials a week. A 4 mile, 1 mile and 6-10 mile (based on mileage). There is no running all on back to back days, however. There is an occasional workout of medium difficulty followed by another possibly all out workout, but never two all out days.

JUst want to say that PAAVo really works. It saved my life. The time trials aren't too bad. Shock training is not a big deal either. You get used to it. The main thing that "shocked me" was my drop in times. I finally broke 6:00 for the mile using PAAVO. You're gonna see. Now I'm not depressed no more.

I started Paavo, and now all the ladies want me. I mean, I am truly the greatest guy.

Hey, me too. the ladies love it when you say that you do the PAAVO. Plus I can dance better now too. its good.

I used the system somewhat in HS and I had success with it. I find it interesting that many of the past Paavo runners run faster after changing to a different system. The base of the Paavo system is developing the cardio system and VO2Max. Many of these runners seem to do well within a year or so after changing training. I believe this is because they have trained the heart to be very strong, but have crossed a line somewhere along the way, and have overtrained. Then when they recover from this, they run very well. They then do seem burned on running hard, and never train as hard again, and never achieve get up to a higher level.

I like parts of the system, but it is very restrictive. I am coaching now, and am using the system with some success. I have to modify it, which is not a good idea, so I'm not sure what I'm going to do with it. I have seen too many injuries the last 2 years. It is probably because I didn't follow all the rules, and I find it too difficult to follow them all.

Overall, it is a good system for motivating kids, and can be very enjoyable and beneficial. The camps are AWESOME. I went to the North and West camps, and they are key experiences like they say they are in the brochures.

ADAPTING THE PAAVO PROGRAM

There are so serious problem with the Paavo system, but there is also a lot of good if you are a 5k and under race....which is why high schoolers can do well under it. It would work better if altered somewhere to take away some of the anaerobic qualities. I would change as follows:

Off-season: 4 weeks

*easy running

*recovery, down time

Endurance Base: 8 weeks

*Adapted PPM system

*Instead of running PPMs all out run them slightly slower than all out...this takes care of one problem of the system.

*Basically the 2-3 miles would be near 10k effort, 4-6 near 10mile effort, and 7-10 near 20mile/marathon effort

*Long run on Sunday, total of 3 hard dayss

*Example: PPMS:

Wk1- Tu-2 Fr-3

Wk2- Tu-3 Fr-4

Wk3- Tu-4 Fr-5

Wk4- Tu-5 Fr-6

Wk5- Tu-6 Fr-7

Wk6- Tu-7 Fr-8

Wk7- Tu-8 Fr-9

Wk8- Tu-9 Fr-10

Intervals: 10 weeks

*Intensive training, not much racing

*Can't really race effectively while running 3-4 workouts a week like the PAAVO system calls for.

*Workout specifics are the same as my earlier long post in this thread

*No long run, except for first two weeks, Long Set Slow Intervals should take place of long run (should be near same mileage as long run as well)

*Example:

SSI-short set slow intervals

LSI-long set slow intervals

SPI-short set pace intervals

LPI-long set pace intervals

FI-fast intervals

Wk1- Su-LR Tu-SSI Fr-LSI

Wk2- Su-LR Tu-SSI Fr-LSI

Wk3- Su-SSI Tu-SPI 200s Th-LSI Sa-LPI 200s

Wk4- Su-SSI Tu-SPI 400s Th-LSI Sa-LPI 400s

Wk5- Tu-FI 200s Sa-RACE

Wk6- Su-SSI Tu-SPI 800s Th-LSI Sa-LPI 800s

Wk7- Su-SSI Tu-SPI 1200s Th-LSI Sa-1200s

Wk8- Tu-FI 200s Sa-RACE

Wk9- Su-SSI Tu-SPI 1600s Th-LSI Sa-LPI 1600s

Wk10- Tu-FI 200s Sa-Race

Racing: 4 weeks

*Simply put, intense racing

*Drop mileage

*Example

Wk1- Tu-FI 400s Sa-RACE

Wk2- Tu-FI 400s Sa-RACE

Wk3- Tu-FI 400s Sa-RACE

Wk4- Tu-FI 400s Sa-RACE

Notes:

*Mileage should be 80-100 during base, 60-70 during Interval training, 50-60 during racing

*Again, above schedule only for those racing 5k and under. I can't see a way to adapt the program for longer races unless completely changing the program.

*Check my earlier long post in this thread for workout specifics

Alan

UTILIZING PAAVO SHOCK METHOD in DANCE CLUBS:

I applied shock training to shock dancing. The principles are the same as PAAVO shock running and you can learn dance better. Normally I need to chug a couple of beers to get up the courage to dance, but now I use shock dancing.

Here's how it works; When a good song starts, go out and start to jump around on the dance floor. Try to touch the ceiling and calp your hands. The idea is to shock yourself and the people around you. Pretty soon you won't care that you look like a spaz. Then start spanking the nearest woman on the dance floor [like your playing a drum]. Don't worry if she gets mad then just run away. By this point you should have shocked yourself so there is no more embarasment. Now you can dance normally in a relazed way.

This is how it worked for me.

Sometimes its good to go to a pet store and buy a couple of small mice. Bring them in a bag to the dance club and lets them run around on the floor. Then scream "rat" and watch everyone scatter. It is funny and another shock method. This can help you dance too.

hope this helps

I am coaching now, and am using the system with some success. I have to modify it, which is not a good idea, >>

Here's another thing that pisses me off about the PAAVO mantra: WHY isn't it a good idea to modify it? I don't know many coaches who use "pure Lydiard", or "pure Daniels" or "pure Vigil", etc. Most good coaches I know study the methods of these innovative coaches and find a way to make it work for their runners. Since they're not working with the same runners under the same conditions as Lydiard, Daniels, or Vigil...they gain an understanding about what works for their runners and come up with something that best applies for them.

But no! According to the PAAVO sycophants, the method is never wrong. You didn't understand it well enough if it didn't work for you, it will only work if you follow it to the letter.

Why is a picture of a giant bull squatting on its hind legs forming in my mind?

seriously... god forbid you tailor your system to the individual student-athlete, and actually coach, or anything...

PAAVO is good for three things: 1) injury 2) burnout 3) Marshall "L Ron Jim Jones" Sellers' bankroll

happy little paavoians could respond with empirical evidence... except there is none. just the "key experiences" of going to some camp and conducting pissing contests in the form of key experiences in the form of races every day for 7 days, or more, if you go west.

top paavo performers i know: justa dahl, dickie bishop.

many all-american certificates.

the best thing you can hope for out of PAAVO is to get laid, or at least a hummer, at one of the camps. which isnt hard... but marshall, and coach weinheimer, and coach rivera, and coach matchett, will try to convince you any type shenanigans will lead you astray from the Path.

which is great... until you're running 10 sec / mile slower during that illustrious key experience known as the state meet. by the way, did you know marshall sells state meet preparation tapes?

and you can check Lydiard and Daniels and Martin & Coe out of a library... what a bunch of bullshit.

Before you start making up lies about Coach Sellers making what sounds like enormous profits in your ignorant head, I suggest you actually know him. He sure doesn't put on coaching clinics and camps for the money, he does it because he wants to help runners. Think about all of the teams in your state that are absolutely horrible simply because their coach lacks enough knowledge. You can make examples of the successes of Rockford, Mead, and York all you want. But, the fact is, you can name off all of maybe 20 high school teams who are annual powerhouses*. No one doubts their training system, as they are obviously successful. There are how many thousands of high school teams though, and those are the ones that are reached out to in order to help them find success.

*Note-Campbell County HS was a national powerhouse in the early 90's. Their coach switched to the Paavo program in the mid-90's. Guess where they still are ... Nationally ranked each year.

All I'm saying is that I can dance better now too. Why can't you see that? I have modified the program to learn to dance too. It is amazing.

EXAMPLE #1: CAUCASIAN PAAVO SHOCK DANCING

EXAMPLE #2: KENYAN PAAVO SHOCK DANCING

EXAMPLE #3: RED HAT DANCE SHOCKER ABOUT TO SPANK DANCE PARTNER

So much pith from TMoney.

First, everyone here knows who Paavo Nurmi is, g...g, whatever your irrelevant handle is.

Second, yes, what the f*** is Columbus North compared to, oh, say, Mead, or Orem, or the Woodlands, or York, or even Shenandoah?

Third, Newton's system, whether or not you agree with it, is nothing like Paavo (and is certainly better than Paavo, by the standing logic, since it has produced Sage and Bakken, and Paavo has sired... um... uh...)

Fourth, psuedo-science. Coe. Daniels. Lydiard (ya'll know Snell has a PhD?). Fuck, Bannister. Rumor has it Marshall Sellers has a PhD from the Jim Jones University.

Five, pre-subjecting your athletes to lactic acid. I'm sure any "Paavonians" stopped reading before this first concrete point, though, so no sense in Bob McAdoo style-continuation (the 22 yr old knows McAdoo).