Renato, tinman, cabral and others- Improving anaerobic capacity while maintaining aerobic capacity

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Try posing this to Tinman at

www.therunzone.com

.

He tends to frequent that site more. There are lots of good threads on training there, without all of the negativity.

You learned wrong. The distinction you are trying to make is outdated, simplistic and wholly inaccurate. My advice to you is to keep asking questions but to consider first the validity of your basic premises.

1. Know what kind of a runner you are, you may not need anaerobic work at all or maybe just a little.

2. Periodize

3. don't drop the AT runs once you start doing anaerobic stuff.

4. Lydiard.

you talkin Donn Cabral, dat guy's da man!!! outta Glastonbury, CT HOLLA

'I've always learned that high intensity anaerobic work can have detrimental effects to the aerobic capacity and that too much aerobic work (such as Lactate threshold, or sub LT work) can lower your anaerobic capacity. '

Well you thought wrong! When you are doing anaarobic work you are still working aerobically as well - unless you hold you breath!

The only reason this might happen is if you are neglecting time on one for the other

Anaerobic capacity improves when you do interval training at fast all flat out pace with very long periods of recovery.

You shall limit the anaerobic interval workout to 1 each week to 1 each 10 days. Anaerobic intervals requires 48-96hours of active recovery and during this recovery period you shall limit your train to easy pace runs.

Anyhow you maintain the aerobic capacity if you do steady aerobic training between the anaerobic workouts as well as another workout during the week period, but not another anaerobic interval workout.

Contrary to the myth or wrong conclusion the anaerobic training doesn’t destroy the aerobics and vive-versa. Only excessive anaerobic workout frequency or inadequate recovery in days between workouts or the include of aerobic training in the program, may risk you to loose one or another.

Besides, every interval training that requires some anaerobic percent simultaneously helps to develop your aerobic development.

This is the reason why, after consider your competitive time-table it’s very benefic to include interval training since the early stages of your periodisation may be during the introductory block of periodisation.

I would say something more: If you pretend aerobic development you shall include interval training workout in your training schedule indeed. Nothing replaces the inclusion of intervals if you want to aerobic development. Otherwise it will take longer or will be impossible to reach your highest plateau of aerobic development.

The science physiology says so.

If you can give a good definition of anaerobic capacity I will give you $10000

I always wonder why someone bumps a 5 year old thread -- especially when no one responded to it then.Could be that "jonjay" has solved his problem, or is no longer here.

runner39 wrote:

bump

The total amount of energy obtainable from the anaerobic energy systems (the combined capacity of the ATP-PCr system and glycolytic system).The maximum amount of energy that can be produced by anaerobic metabolism.Save your money.

wellnow wrote:

If you can give a good definition of anaerobic capacity I will give you $10000

Or better yet (give the money to yourself):

in 2008, wellnow wrote:

The true Anaerobic Capacity would be the maximum amount of non mitochondrial ATP generated per unit of time and this will occur in a very short sprint, when the athlete reaches maximum velocity, i.e. during a 60m sprint.

The sources of energy here would be Creatine phosphate and Glycolyitc ATP.

Glycolytic ATP and lactate are produced at the same time, but the glycolytic ATP is available sooner for fueling muscle contraction and therefore provides much more fuel in a short sprint.

wellnow wrote:

If you can give a good definition of anaerobic capacity I will give you $10000

$10000 pounds, euros or dollars ? Who is the judge of this contest, you ? What a funny guy.

Anyhow it seems you got more interest to come to your own definition about aerobic and anaerobic, lactate or “acid lactic” and it´s the main reason you ask me about one current definition.

Let me say this once for all. I may admit that you are right. Take for granted that you are right about acid lactic and we are wrong about that myth this does not change nothing in my training methodology. The question of theory means nothing to me. Since long ago my basic training elements of analysis in the long distance approach is time and space/distance. I simply use “names” to identify some training situations. I don´t care if the definitions of sport physiology are right or wrong. I don´t. It seems its you favourite matter but i don´t care.

However i guess i answered the question. I said that the best way to train aerobic or anaerobic development is to include intermittent training in the training program– fartlek, hills, track intervals whatever. This specific intermittent workouts shall be done in the weekly frequency they way that the easy runs between able to adequate recovery.

I say another my own conviction some don´t agree. The so called “anaerobic intervals” does contribute to the aerobic development.

What don´t you understand or you disagree with my answer ?

I fully agree with Antonio that the "definitions" of every type of training starting from a physiological point of view are useless and, the most part of time, not correct.

The fact is that every kind of training provokes several effects on the physiology, not only one, and these effects can be different for the same athletes and for the same "external load" in different period of the season.

Therefore, a good coach must know the reason of different type of training, but cant consider it as "mathematics", since the final goal (running faster in our case) depends on a combination of factors, each one depending on several variables (weather, shape at the moment, psychological situation, opportunities of competitions, musts with sponsors and organisers, private problems, etc.).

In any case, I want to explain my philosophy about training, valid for every distance where we need endurance.

We have several steps (or stairs) of intensity, every step connected with some physiological effect, and we need to use ALL THESE STEPS, of course with different percentage, according to the event we want to prepare.

A) ANAEROBIC (LACTIC) POWER.

It's the ability to produce the higher quantity of lactate per second. We can measure this ability dividing the total quantity of lactate produced inside the muscular fibres per the time of the performance.

This means that for different kinds of attitudes (for example, for a specialist of 400 vs. 800 vs. 1500m), depending on different kind of fibres (percentage of Fast or Slow, and of Fast II Type), the distance and the duration of the exercise is different.

The practice of training suggests the following parameters for researching the individual Lactic Power :

a) For a 400m runner, a distance between 300y and 300m

(duration 25" / 32")

b) For a 800m runner, a distance between 500 and 600m

(duration 60" / 1'15")

c) For a 1500m runner, a distance between 700 and 900m

(duration 1'30" / 2')

d) For a specialist of 5000m, we don't look at this parameter

The LACTIC POWER is the most important and specific quality for 400m runners, and reduces the importance while the event becomes longer.-

B) ANAEROBIC CAPACITY.

It's the ability to produce the higher quantity of lactate in short time. Under this point of view, it's directly depending on the LACTIC POWER. This is a specific attitude for 800m runners.

When we speak about training, if for example we have an athlete able, in a test, to run 500m in 62", a training for increasing his CAPACITY is 3 times 500m in 65"5 (95% of his Power) with 6' / 8' recovery.

c) ANAEROBIC RESISTANCE.

It's the ability to work with a very high quantity of lactate in the muscular fibres. This quality can be bettered working with two goals :

a) To increase the ability in "saturation" (the fibres can sustain more lactate)

b) To increase the ability in "removing" lactate from the fibres.

The physiological goal is to improve the permeability of the membrane, first of all.

Under the methodological point of view, having as example the same athlete, a training for Anaerobic Resistance is 10 times 500m in 1'12" (85% of the Power) with 1'30" / 2' recovery.

This quality is connected with the AEROBIC POWER, more than the ANAEROBIC CAPACITY. Therefore, I don't agree the definition that we can find in the most part of Training Books, speaking about CAPACITY only.

For example, a training of Steve Cram (10 x 300m in 39" / 40" with 40" of recovery), clearly in the lactic area, was possible because of his very high AEROBIC POWER, that allowed him in removing very quickly the lactate, limiting the its final quantity in his fibres.

One thing is HOW FAST we can produce lactate, other thing is HOW MUCH lactate we can produce in long time, and yest another thing is HOW MUCH ACCUMULATION we can accept having still the possibility to work.

D) AEROBIC POWER.

This is the ability to produce the highest level of lactate, remaining in Steady State (MAX LASS, max lactate steady state). Like the LACTIC POWER, this quality has different level and different duration, depending on the event. For example, in top runners of 10000m (26'30" / 27') the athletes can have a period of about 17' / 20' during which they run at an almost even level of lactate (about 7-9 mml), without the typical graphic we can find in all the books of physiology (continue increase of the level following an exponential line). This is an attitude typical for top specialists, partly genetic, but partly depending on the type of training.

At the end of every thing, the real way for improving in ALL THE QUALITIES bases on very clear principles :

a) Using EVERY type of training (of course in different percentage, according the seasonal period) with every athletes, and for every event

b) Using this training DURING ALL THE SEASON (there is no more a long period WITHOUT some training of speed, or, in case of 800m runners, without some training of Aerobic Power)

c) Using a training of SPECIAL QUALITY, always looking for EXTENDING its volume.

For example, the most important difference between the classic Marathon Training of Lydiard and the current system, for long distances, is that now we don't start every season with long run very slow (in the 60 years, athletes with the WR started their training in November with 3 hours at 8' per mile, for increasing the "capillarization", following the system of Van Aaken). Now we know that, running long, we can reach the max level of capillars in 2 years time, after running slowly is useless. So, while 50 years ago the athletes ran VERY LONG and SLOW, combining with intervals VERY FAST and SHORT, now the best athletes run (VERY) LONG and FAST (the first having this intuition was Ron Clarke in the period 1964-68).

rekrunner wrote:

The total amount of energy obtainable from the anaerobic energy systems (the combined capacity of the ATP-PCr system and glycolytic system).

The maximum amount of energy that can be produced by anaerobic metabolism.

Save your money.

wellnow wrote:

If you can give a good definition of anaerobic capacity I will give you $10000

That's nearly right rekrunner. I'll give you $100 for that. All you have to do to claim your prize is email your details to:

*********************************************

Good answer Antonio.

wellnow

Now it’s my turn. If you can prove me the existence of the Central Governor I will give you the $10000 – in dollars because its less expensive !

You see…it’s you and not me that discuss about something you can’t prove by the science. You simply speculate, and it’s no science at all.

You see, how you discuss and define about something no one really proved the chemical or biology evidence whatever.

Anyhow the day you will prove it by the science you will get the Nobel Prize, what is a lot of money.

Don’t think i’m poor in physiology. I just don’t know how to write good English and that’s all. I don’t base my training method in the rocket physiology by my own option, by my choice, not by physiology misunderstand.

Studies has shown that anaerobic work with inadequate rest will improve both aerobic and anaerobic capacity in untrained runners.

As always, it depends on the population you're speaking of. It depends on the needs of the athletes. So, making blanket assumptions about simple physiological names for complex human processes completely and utterly misses the point.

The point is....train long, train fast, train hard. Compare your former training with your current training and your future training. Instead of second guessing yourself find out what has worked and repeat that. This doesn't need to be rocket science....

Tabata, I., Irishawa, K., Kuzaki, M., Nishimura, K., Ogita, F., and Miyachi, M., Metabolic Profile of High-Intensity Intermittent Exercises. Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise, 29(3), 390-395, 1997)

To evaluate the magnitude of the stress on the aerobic and the anaerobic energy release systems during high intensity bicycle training, two commonly used protocols (IE1 and IE2) were examined during bicycling. IE1 consisted of one set of 6-7 bouts of 20-s exercise at an intensity of approximately 170% of the subject's maximal oxygen uptake (VO2max) with a 10-s rest between each bout. IE2 involved one set of 4-5 bouts of 30-s exercise at an intensity of approximately 200% of the subject's VO2max and a 2-min rest between each bout. The accumulated oxygen deficit of IE1 (69 +/- 8 ml.kg-1, mean +/- SD) was significantly higher than that of IE2 (46 +/- 12 ml.kg-1, N = 9, p `` 0.01). The accumulated oxygen deficit of IE1 was not significantly different from the maximal accumulated oxygen deficit (the anaerobic capacity) of the subjects (69 +/- 10 ml.kg-1), whereas the corresponding value for IE2 was less than the subjects' maximal accumulated oxygen deficit (P < 0.01). The peak oxygen uptake during the last 10 s of the IE1 (55 +/- 6 ml.kg-1.min-1) was not significantly less than the VO2max of the subjects (57 +/- 6 ml.kg-1.min-1). The peak oxygen uptake during the last 10 s of IE2 (47 +/- 8 ml.kg-1.min-1) was lower than the VO2max (P < 0.01). In conclusion, this study showed that intermittent exercise defined by the IE1 protocol may tax both the anaerobic and aerobic energy releasing systems almost maximally.

Tabata I, Nishimura K, Kouzaki M, Hirai Y, Ogita F, Miyachi M, Yamamoto K. Effects of moderate-intensity endurance and high-intensity intermittent training on anaerobic capacity and VO2max.Department of Physiology and Biomechanics, National Institute of Fitness and Sports, Kagoshima Prefecture, Japan.

This study consists of two training experiments using a mechanically braked cycle ergometer. First, the effect of 6 wk of moderate-intensity endurance training (intensity: 70% of maximal oxygen uptake (VO2max), 60 min.d-1, 5 d.wk-1) on the anaerobic capacity (the maximal accumulated oxygen deficit) and VO2max was evaluated. After the training, the anaerobic capacity did not increase significantly (P %% 0.10), while VO2max increased from 53 +/- 5 ml.kg-1 min-1 to 58 +/- 3 ml.kg-1.min-1 (P < 0.01) (mean +/- SD). Second, to quantify the effect of high-intensity intermittent training on energy release, seven subjects performed an intermittent training exercise 5 d.wk-1 for 6 wk. The exhaustive intermittent training consisted of seven to eight sets of 20-s exercise at an intensity of about 170% of VO2max with a 10-s rest between each bout. After the training period, VO2max increased by 7 ml.kg-1.min-1, while the anaerobic capacity increased by 28%. In conclusion, this study showed that moderate-intensity aerobic training that improves the maximal aerobic power does not change anaerobic capacity and that adequate high-intensity intermittent training may improve both anaerobic and aerobic energy supplying systems significantly, probably through imposing intensive stimuli on both systems.

Antonio,

Staying with the title of the thread, can you explain how mileage fits into your system for FT runners? If I can't double more than one day a week, can the easy day runs be 50 minutes rather than 40? Or will that prevent adequate recovery?

I thought the offer was only for Antonio. Thanks anyway, but you can keep the money -- the dollar is worth just a little more than the lira these days.I don't deserve full credit, since I just typed "anaerobic capacity definition" into a google search. But I did take the liberty to replace "lactic acid system" with "glycolytic" system -- I didn't want to torture you that much.But I'm curious what you think is missing.

wellnow wrote:

That's nearly right rekrunner. I'll give you $100 for that.