Is Marathon Pace actually useful in training?

As you mention, the mental aspect is important. You have to get to know that pace well enough to be able to hit it like a metronome without thinking. So you should incorporate it into your training.

I think there is such a thing as getting good at running a particular pace. That is, with enough practice running at a certain pace you optimize your running economy at that pace.

Physiologically there is no benefit,psychologically it makes a big difference,if you can knock a 20m @MP 4-5 weeks out it says you are in a great place.

I don't think it's true to say that there's no benefit to MP work, but maybe it's not the most efficient pace in terms of improvement vs. volume.

Things like 18-20 miles at MP can be a race in themselves, taking time away from more effective training and leaving you flat for the real race. Hence all the times pros have bragged about their epic 20 mile tempo only to sh*t the bed in the race

I've seen people instead recommend a fast finish long run, say 10 miles easy then 10 miles at MP, to simulate running fast with some miles in your legs.

I think there is a big difference between Daniels M pace converted from a, for example, 5k based VDOT vs. your actual marathon pace.

My “M” pace is squarely in the sub threshold category and running 8-10 miles at that pace frequently seems to have huge benefits for me. These types of long sub-LT tempos seem pretty common place in most modern training plans. Daniels also includes a bi-weekly 10 @ M pace in his 5k plan which is a change from previous editions.

Birkoboy wrote:

Physiologically there is no benefit,psychologically it makes a big difference,if you can knock a 20m @MP 4-5 weeks out it says you are in a great place.

If you can run 20 miles at MP 4-5 weeks out in a non-race environment then your MP is too slow.

OozmaKappa wrote:

As you mention, the mental aspect is important. You have to get to know that pace well enough to be able to hit it like a metronome without thinking. So you should incorporate it into your training.

I disagree with this. A watch is going to be what keeps you at pace. Running MP outside of a race and inside a race are two very different things. You can't practice race day because you have adrenaline, other runners, a taper, etc. etc. The idea that just by running a lot of MP miles you will automatically know how run those during a race is misguided.

I dont know man, there is this guy named RENATO CANOVA who sure believes in training at marathon pace.....

Seriously. Who has coached better marathoners, Jack Daniels or Renato Canova? In a similar vein, this guy I know swears by Lydiard training for the marathon. Lydiard's marathoners were bad compared to his mid-D runners. The most successful marathon coach has to be Renato Canova, and he preaches a high volume of SPECIFIC training.

Fair point. But perhaps you rely too much on technology. I think you should be able to pace yourself.

haha hopefully. NAZ (and Hansens-Brooks, from which NAZ is basically an offshoot) typically does 16 miles/26k at race pace like 3 weeks out. I have done that workout 2x before a marathon, and i am a huge believer that if you can run 16@MP at the end of a long week of mileage, when you are tapered down and in a race environment, you can run that for the full thon.

Fernando Vasquez wrote:

Birkoboy wrote:

Physiologically there is no benefit,psychologically it makes a big difference,if you can knock a 20m @MP 4-5 weeks out it says you are in a great place.

If you can run 20 miles at MP 4-5 weeks out in a non-race environment then your MP is too slow.

I don't think that's right,I've done it the last 3 autumns and each year I've been within a couple of minutes of the time I aimed for,wouldn't say I had much left at the end of them.

I almost never run in big cities, but last time I did a marathon it was in Denver and my GPS was useless until we got away from downtown into the neighborhoods. Do modern GPS watches work well in areas with lots of tall buildings?

I had trouble hitting goal marathon pace on race day, until I started doing more marathon pace work in training. Whether is psychological or physical, or both, I don’t know. I just know it’s helped me.

If you are an elite then your options are limited so MP workouts are crucial.

If you are not an elite then MP workouts are useless.

Renato Canova does a ton of M pace work.

Mike Smith also does a ton of sub threshold work. More of it than actual threshold work it seems.

birdbeard wrote:

Renato Canova does a ton of M pace work.

Mike Smith also does a ton of sub threshold work. More of it than actual threshold work it seems.

Yes but RC coaches elites, not social runners.

Social runners would benefit a lot more from easy and lactate workouts.

Also the recovery is quicker.

I don’t do any running at MP.

I do my long runs as a fast finish at 1/2 marathon pace or slightly faster. Typical long run would be 20 miles with the first 14 at an easy pace and the last 6 at 1/2 marathon pace. My other workout day would be at tempo pace.

I’ve never had any trouble running at MP on race day.

All paces are useful. For any given race, race pace +/- 10% is the most significant area of pace continuum.

You train exactly those muscle fibers that will do the work in your race.

Anyone who says it isn’t simply has never dedicated a training block to it.

Some of these responses are terrible. 20mi at MP? Fast finish LR with 6mi at HMP?

Both of those workouts are leaving your race in training.