It could be interesting. I hope that Gladwell and Wejo aren't presented as any sort of experts on running. The brojos, after all this time, still can't bring themselves to think critically about anything (which immediately puts them at a disadvantage when discussing anything sport-related) and Gladwell seems to be a name here only because he's a guy who's sold a lot of books and used to run.
Anyway... I hope the doc is better than that. Little Dickie Pound shelled out $12 CAD to watch it! :)
Im curious about this doc and will watch but I'm tired of the circular form this story has taken.
So many new articles/docs come out about it and they reveal nothing new.
Don't get me wrong. I think Salazar is a bad apple and always have. But I'm just tired of people telling the same stories over and over, and selling it as something earth shattering.
Also some of the reporting has been sloppy. I actually thought the pro-publica article and original doc was really bad, a lot of anecdotal evidence that was easy to poke holes in. It was only when Salazar released his own statement stupidly admitting to drugging his own son with testosterone that I absolutely turned on him and was convinced he was in the wrong.
Also, I was happy to see Mary Cain expose him as an abusive coach, but did it occur to Lindsay Crouse to do some more digging around than just tell Mary's side of things? Weinstein wasn't just exposed by Rose McGowan. Reporters actually interviewed many others to build a firm story of abuse. Mary was sort of left alone there for a minute and it was good that other athletes like Amy Yoder Begley, Jackie Areson, Kara, and Cam Levins confirmed it and shared stories of their own. Why didn't anyone ask them about their experiences before putting Mary in the dead center?
All this to say, I hope this is a doc that offers some concrete evidence on the athletes he has coached who have perhaps broken the rules.
Looks great.
It's time to free Alberto, award him the presidential medal of freedom, and get back to winning
In addition to the "did he do it?" question the trailer presents, it should also be asked what "it" is and should we care if he did "it"?
It continues defies belief to me that during the stretch when Kara Goucher was medalling at worlds and competing for wins at major marathons and Rupp was a junior at Oregon who had never won an NCAA title, he was participating in some huge doping scheme and the subject was never even broached with her beyond some questionable post-pregnancy weight loss suggestions.
We're supposed to believe that she was his best athlete and was clean and he never suggested doping to her while his other athletes were cheating?
... suspended for doping violations.
Did he do it?
Or is Salazar being victimized...
LOL - what? Are these guys really wondering whether or not Salazar really committed these antidoping infractions? Unbelievable...
casual obsever wrote:
... suspended for doping violations.
Did he do it?
Or is Salazar being victimized...
LOL - what? Are these guys really wondering whether or not Salazar really committed these antidoping infractions? Unbelievable...
I don't think anyone actually question whether Salazar committed the infractions described. But those infractions aren't a big doping ring, it's silly stuff.
If I recall correctly a key part of the case was Magness technically still being an "athlete" because he participated in some random thing?
duck sauce wrote:
We're supposed to believe that she was his best athlete and was clean and he never suggested doping to her while his other athletes were cheating?
Exactly!
duck sauce wrote:
In addition to the "did he do it?" question the trailer presents, it should also be asked what "it" is and should we care if he did "it"?
It continues defies belief to me that during the stretch when Kara Goucher was medalling at worlds and competing for wins at major marathons and Rupp was a junior at Oregon who had never won an NCAA title, he was participating in some huge doping scheme and the subject was never even broached with her beyond some questionable post-pregnancy weight loss suggestions.
We're supposed to believe that she was his best athlete and was clean and he never suggested doping to her while his other athletes were cheating?
I think this is a completely fair question and I also remain a Goucher fan. I also think that Kara has been as transparent as she can be about her history. She hasn't just spoken out against Salazar and Galen, she has discussed her own history too in podcasts and interviews. She has urged USADA to go through her records with a fine toothed comb. She has even gone as far as to say she has worried about her own history with Salazar.
Kara has also described things very meticulously and her story hasn't changed. She described coming back from having a baby and how the mood of the group had changed. How the men were on a completely different level of training and how they were starting to produce results she felt were unrealistic. You might say "convenient" that this started to happen when she was gone. But it also tracks with the results everyone started producing at the time.
It's possible that Alberto didn't start off messing with testosterone, prescription drugs, but rather it was a slow slow drip. A little here, a little there. Only with Galen and slowly welcoming other athletes in the fold who he trusted to keep the secret. And then more and more experimentation as the years progressed.
You mentioned how Galen as a junior in college had never won an NCAA title. Isn't that funny? Fast forward, he had made his first Olympic team in 2008, and then won 5 NCAA titles when he returned. Went from pretty good to absolutely legendary in a year...
Then he wins a silver medal in 2012. Then he becomes a several times over American record holder and a bronze medalist in 2016. Steadily steadily steadily upward. We should all be so lucky.
it's hard to talk about progression or even use progression as a key indicator for doping because everyone has different progressions. I just don't know of anyone else who has progressed so soothly.
Finally, I want to answer the first part of your question, does "it" matter? I think "it" does. Because cheating changes the result completely. As Jenny Simpson says, it's a physical test, not a science lab.
As I've gotten older I've come to realize I wasn't nearly biased enough.
Nike created a monster and the sport has had to suffer with it.
Wet Coast wrote:
Here, I talked to filmmaker Paul Kemp about the documentary, it's around 30 minutes....in video and podcast.
It's a fascinating discussion (not me) listening to the work he put into getting a whole different perspective on Alberto Salazar and Nike Oregon Project. He talks to a lot of people who all the readers here are familiar with.
https://athleticsillustrated.com/paul-kemp-interview-on-his-documentary-nikes-big-bet/
Great podcast above from Athletics Illustrated. The director of the film seems to know a hell a lot more about the sport of track and field than most of the people here... the film sounds fascinating. Maybe people beyond Letsrun will actually be interested in our sport for once. Salazar is a polarizing, and epic character, made for a documentary. I'm in.
Paul Kemp used to run middle distance at a high level, many years ago. Definitely knows his stuff.
fear fear fear wrote:
duck sauce wrote:
In addition to the "did he do it?" question the trailer presents, it should also be asked what "it" is and should we care if he did "it"?
It continues defies belief to me that during the stretch when Kara Goucher was medalling at worlds and competing for wins at major marathons and Rupp was a junior at Oregon who had never won an NCAA title, he was participating in some huge doping scheme and the subject was never even broached with her beyond some questionable post-pregnancy weight loss suggestions.
We're supposed to believe that she was his best athlete and was clean and he never suggested doping to her while his other athletes were cheating?
I think this is a completely fair question and I also remain a Goucher fan. I also think that Kara has been as transparent as she can be about her history. She hasn't just spoken out against Salazar and Galen, she has discussed her own history too in podcasts and interviews. She has urged USADA to go through her records with a fine toothed comb. She has even gone as far as to say she has worried about her own history with Salazar.
Kara has also described things very meticulously and her story hasn't changed. She described coming back from having a baby and how the mood of the group had changed. How the men were on a completely different level of training and how they were starting to produce results she felt were unrealistic. You might say "convenient" that this started to happen when she was gone. But it also tracks with the results everyone started producing at the time.
It's possible that Alberto didn't start off messing with testosterone, prescription drugs, but rather it was a slow slow drip. A little here, a little there. Only with Galen and slowly welcoming other athletes in the fold who he trusted to keep the secret. And then more and more experimentation as the years progressed.
You mentioned how Galen as a junior in college had never won an NCAA title. Isn't that funny? Fast forward, he had made his first Olympic team in 2008, and then won 5 NCAA titles when he returned. Went from pretty good to absolutely legendary in a year...
Then he wins a silver medal in 2012. Then he becomes a several times over American record holder and a bronze medalist in 2016. Steadily steadily steadily upward. We should all be so lucky.
it's hard to talk about progression or even use progression as a key indicator for doping because everyone has different progressions. I just don't know of anyone else who has progressed so soothly.
Finally, I want to answer the first part of your question, does "it" matter? I think "it" does. Because cheating changes the result completely. As Jenny Simpson says, it's a physical test, not a science lab.
This take on Rupp is pretty disingenuous. His junior year placed second at NCAA xc and redshirted track to focus on the olympics...he placed second at the olympic trials and ran 27:36 in Beijing for 13 place.
Irezumi wrote:
Paul Kemp used to run middle distance at a high level, many years ago. Definitely knows his stuff.
yep-U of Toronto i believe a few years after I raced college....
duck sauce wrote:
casual obsever wrote:
LOL - what? Are these guys really wondering whether or not Salazar really committed these antidoping infractions? Unbelievable...
I don't think anyone actually question whether Salazar committed the infractions described. But those infractions aren't a big doping ring, it's silly stuff.
If I recall correctly a key part of the case was Magness technically still being an "athlete" because he participated in some random thing?
Pretty much this. Any one that took the time to read the report knows that any "violations" were silly and trivial at best. A four year ban was overreaching - overreaching A TON when you consider the fact that none of the athletes were implicated at all or received any kind of sanctions. Any non-biased observer (I realize this is no one on LRC) has to believe that AlSal will be back as soon as the appeal is heard.
Now I'm way off topic..........all that said the documentary looks awesome, will definitely be tuning in.
I want the marathon investigation documentary. Keyboard jockey ruining lives of social media joggers.
Little Dickie Pound wrote:
It could be interesting. I hope that Gladwell and Wejo aren't presented as any sort of experts on running. The brojos, after all this time, still can't bring themselves to think critically about anything (which immediately puts them at a disadvantage when discussing anything sport-related) and Gladwell seems to be a name here only because he's a guy who's sold a lot of books and used to run.
Anyway... I hope the doc is better than that. Little Dickie Pound shelled out $12 CAD to watch it! :)
If this is Paul K , I'll watch this at hotdocs in canada. it looks good , the promo hook worked .
SDSU Aztec wrote:
How is a documentary about Salazar a big bet for a company worth about $120B?
Salazar was the big bet, not the documentary. This isn't a Nike documentary, that's just the title. I was confused by the thread title too till I watched it.
Yup, I am pretty sure I can say Kemp ran for the 3 championship teams at University of Manitoba between 1988-91, and then at the U of Toronto Track Club after that.
Watched the preview and the podcast interview, already signed up to watch tomorrow. It will be very interesting and worth it just to put into context the comments of the toughest crowd out there: hard core runners.
I met Salazar and a bunch of the project runners back in 2004 in Park City, Utah. It was a pretty cool set up, staying in the lodges at altitude. Went for a few easy runs, out for beers, played Frisbee with Dan Browne before he ran 20 x 400 at 60s. Galen Rupp was still a junior and played video games on some game boy. Chad Johnson, Dave Davis and the other guys were super nice. Lots of running and guaranteed, 99% of the guys on this board would have loved a week there. The guys who were there loved it too. Salazar was very on top of everything; where the next meets to qualify were, who were the guys to look for to make the Olympic team etc. Overall a very good training environment from what I saw.
Perhaps the big bet was trying to change American marathon running to be world-class again, after the drought for 10-plus years. Remember when Ryans Hall and Shay and Dathan et al all came to the fore? The dialogue about American marathon running changed.
I think Nike's Big Bet was about trying to change American distance running with NOP.
But the director is confident that viewers will have a different perspective on Salazar after watching the film.