cramister wrote:
Jager, Ferlic, McGorty, Bor in close 4th
Is Andy Bayer still competing in the steeple these days?
cramister wrote:
Jager, Ferlic, McGorty, Bor in close 4th
Is Andy Bayer still competing in the steeple these days?
cramister wrote:
It's not crazy to think that a 13:25 guy could get down to 13:1x, maybe closer to 13:19 than 13:10 but still
About 10 guys in the US can run sub 13:20 right now
no not really wrote:
There is no standing rest at all in this workout, you are always moving, that’s the key. The only point you stop moving is before the 400 maybe to put your spikes on.
Ferlic absolutely took standing rest in this workout though. Look at the moving time vs elapsed time in the linked Strava activity - 46:14 moving but 54:37 elapsed. There are over 8 minutes where his watch was stopped, or at least the GPS registered him as not in motion.
I don't disagree about his finish at the Trials. But just because you are outside of the top 3 in the country doesn't mean you should retire from professional running... Our sport would be very very boring if that happened. Let the guy get amped up about the FKT for Michigan WO. Setting goals and knocking them down is how people are able to keep grinding day in and day out.
Running professionally is about chasing the dream. Realistic/probable or not.
let's define "true" wrote:
I always find these kinds of comments interesting.
Despite 1) Ferlic training under Warhurst, 2) Willis explicitly stating that there is a 250m jog from the stadium over to the tempo loop, and 3) the fact that the Michigan "road loop" obviously starts like 200m away from the track finish line...you always have someone come on to state that "true" Michigan is purely continuous and doesn't have any rest between the track work and tempo.
So what precisely makes that more of a "true" Michigan, again?
your AVERAGE letsrunner can do this workout in 4:06, 3:00, 1:55, and 50.6 with a 2K Hill loop (200 m vert) at 4:34 pace with no rest and then do a 10 mile cool down at 5:10 pace. They are that good, and then they get into their $100 Tesla and drive to their $1.5 million home and work on making $400K a night on the stock market.
Don't use strava so this might be way off base but could it be that he synched his watch before the workout and didn't stop everything immediately after the last rep?
Seems strange that he would be with Warhurst and Willis and do the workout "wrong"
Has anyone considered that Ferlic didn’t do it wrong and that Warhurst wanted him to take that much recovery between the reps? Warhurst is his coach AND the man who created the Michigan after all
let's define "true" wrote:
I always find these kinds of comments interesting.
Despite 1) Ferlic training under Warhurst, 2) Willis explicitly stating that there is a 250m jog from the stadium over to the tempo loop, and 3) the fact that the Michigan "road loop" obviously starts like 200m away from the track finish line...you always have someone come on to state that "true" Michigan is purely continuous and doesn't have any rest between the track work and tempo.
So what precisely makes that more of a "true" Michigan, again?
This is my question too. Seems like a lot of people have opinions but unless we know what Webb/Willis/etc. did it is hard to say since they are who we are really comparing to.
On topic wrote:
no not really wrote:
There is no standing rest at all in this workout, you are always moving, that’s the key. The only point you stop moving is before the 400 maybe to put your spikes on.
Ferlic absolutely took standing rest in this workout though. Look at the moving time vs elapsed time in the linked Strava activity - 46:14 moving but 54:37 elapsed. There are over 8 minutes where his watch was stopped, or at least the GPS registered him as not in motion.
To clarify the cause of this - his watch was running, he just wasn't moving. So these times are included in the splits we have been talking about and he didn't take longer rests than what is showing up. You can confirm this by adding up all of the listed splits/rests and will see they add up to the total elapsed time.
bugattiaron wrote:
He's nowhere near 13:1x shape.
Really? He just ran 13:25 in crap conditions in Texas and won the race...running 13:19 in better weather with better competition seems very reasonable
ever heard of evan jager and the steeplechase? wrote:
your AVERAGE letsrunner can do this workout in 4:06, 3:00, 1:55, and 50.6 with a 2K Hill loop (200 m vert) at 4:34 pace with no rest and then do a 10 mile cool down at 5:10 pace. They are that good, and then they get into their $100 Tesla and drive to their $1.5 million home and work on making $400K a night on the stock market.
You left out the part about the model hot wife/girlfriend in your post ....
wisenheimer at work wrote:
in 2016 (may 24th) nick willis postet on twitter:
"1600- 4.20
1200- 3.11
800- 157
400- 51.8
4.55 mile pace for 2.1k road loops between each track rep."
and:
"250m jog to the road. Same after the road finishes to get to the track."
a 250m jog to the road is about 60sec for willis, i guess.
What Willis posted here is a "true Michigan". I ran about 30-40 of them in my competitive days from 1978 to 1992. I ran at Michigan and graduated in 1983. Ron was my coach during most of this time and remains a good friend today. In looking through my log books my best Michigan was probably May 29, 1986. I was three years out of Michigan and running for Nike's Athletic West and lived in Ann Arbor and often trained with the Michigan team (as I did on this day).
I ran:
1600 - 4:19
1200 -3:11
800 - 2:08
400 - 58.5
In between these track portions was a slow jog of about 250 meters to the road (probably took about 2 minutes) and for the 2K road loop (which in my day we did not time) I would guess was about 5:20 per mile pace. Then another 250 meter slow jog back to the track for the track portions. I wore racing flats throughout and no one ever stopped in the 8 mile continuous workout. There was no changing into spikes for the final 400.
We did the Michigan usually about a month before a big race (Big Tens/NCAA for collegiates, TAC National Championships for me). It was a good indication of race readiness as it demonstrated both strength and speed. And you could compare it to other Michigans as we usually did one early in the outdoor track season as well. For me, after this particular Michigan I knew I was very fit. Three weeks later I won the TAC 10,000 in 28:21 in a race that was tactical with many surges. My last lap was the difference as I ran the final 400 in 56.4.
I loved the Michigan because it was a little bit of everything. Track, road, hills, jogging, tempo, speed, and distance (13 miles total with warmup and cooldown). The toughest part was the first 1600 because it put you into oxygen debt with lactates building and you still had 7 miles of work to go. But you could tackle the workout in segments and each trip back to the track you knew was going to be of a shorter distance then the previous track portion. And the last 400 was just pure fun as you simply let it all out. It very much mimicked a 10,000 meter race where you went out hard, settled in, countered any surges, and kicked the last 400 hopefully faster than anyone else.
What Willis and Ferlic did in this same workout far surpasses anything that I ever did in a Michigan. If I did what they did, I would have thought 27:20 would be in my reach (later in July of 1986 I ran a PR of 27:58).
So this in my opinion is a monster workout but it is hard to grasp unless you run a Michigan. Many a good man dropped out of this workout because the road loops had the effect of a boxer working the body and the fast track times were like surviving a flurry of jabs and upper cuts. You knew you were ready when you ran a good Michigan. And it helped that Ron would confirm it with a "VERY NICE".
Gerard Donakowski wrote:
wisenheimer at work wrote:
in 2016 (may 24th) nick willis postet on twitter:
"1600- 4.20
1200- 3.11
800- 157
400- 51.8
4.55 mile pace for 2.1k road loops between each track rep."
and:
"250m jog to the road. Same after the road finishes to get to the track."
a 250m jog to the road is about 60sec for willis, i guess.
What Willis posted here is a "true Michigan". I ran about 30-40 of them in my competitive days from 1978 to 1992. I ran at Michigan and graduated in 1983. Ron was my coach during most of this time and remains a good friend today. In looking through my log books my best Michigan was probably May 29, 1986. I was three years out of Michigan and running for Nike's Athletic West and lived in Ann Arbor and often trained with the Michigan team (as I did on this day).
I ran:
1600 - 4:19
1200 -3:11
800 - 2:08
400 - 58.5
In between these track portions was a slow jog of about 250 meters to the road (probably took about 2 minutes) and for the 2K road loop (which in my day we did not time) I would guess was about 5:20 per mile pace. Then another 250 meter slow jog back to the track for the track portions. I wore racing flats throughout and no one ever stopped in the 8 mile continuous workout. There was no changing into spikes for the final 400.
We did the Michigan usually about a month before a big race (Big Tens/NCAA for collegiates, TAC National Championships for me). It was a good indication of race readiness as it demonstrated both strength and speed. And you could compare it to other Michigans as we usually did one early in the outdoor track season as well. For me, after this particular Michigan I knew I was very fit. Three weeks later I won the TAC 10,000 in 28:21 in a race that was tactical with many surges. My last lap was the difference as I ran the final 400 in 56.4.
I loved the Michigan because it was a little bit of everything. Track, road, hills, jogging, tempo, speed, and distance (13 miles total with warmup and cooldown). The toughest part was the first 1600 because it put you into oxygen debt with lactates building and you still had 7 miles of work to go. But you could tackle the workout in segments and each trip back to the track you knew was going to be of a shorter distance then the previous track portion. And the last 400 was just pure fun as you simply let it all out. It very much mimicked a 10,000 meter race where you went out hard, settled in, countered any surges, and kicked the last 400 hopefully faster than anyone else.
What Willis and Ferlic did in this same workout far surpasses anything that I ever did in a Michigan. If I did what they did, I would have thought 27:20 would be in my reach (later in July of 1986 I ran a PR of 27:58).
So this in my opinion is a monster workout but it is hard to grasp unless you run a Michigan. Many a good man dropped out of this workout because the road loops had the effect of a boxer working the body and the fast track times were like surviving a flurry of jabs and upper cuts. You knew you were ready when you ran a good Michigan. And it helped that Ron would confirm it with a "VERY NICE".
Awesome story/info/history. Thanks for sharing!
@TheRunningEffect wrote:
Gerard Donakowski wrote:
What Willis posted here is a "true Michigan". I ran about 30-40 of them in my competitive days from 1978 to 1992. I ran at Michigan and graduated in 1983. Ron was my coach during most of this time and remains a good friend today. In looking through my log books my best Michigan was probably May 29, 1986. I was three years out of Michigan and running for Nike's Athletic West and lived in Ann Arbor and often trained with the Michigan team (as I did on this day).
I ran:
1600 - 4:19
1200 -3:11
800 - 2:08
400 - 58.5
In between these track portions was a slow jog of about 250 meters to the road (probably took about 2 minutes) and for the 2K road loop (which in my day we did not time) I would guess was about 5:20 per mile pace. Then another 250 meter slow jog back to the track for the track portions. I wore racing flats throughout and no one ever stopped in the 8 mile continuous workout. There was no changing into spikes for the final 400.
We did the Michigan usually about a month before a big race (Big Tens/NCAA for collegiates, TAC National Championships for me). It was a good indication of race readiness as it demonstrated both strength and speed. And you could compare it to other Michigans as we usually did one early in the outdoor track season as well. For me, after this particular Michigan I knew I was very fit. Three weeks later I won the TAC 10,000 in 28:21 in a race that was tactical with many surges. My last lap was the difference as I ran the final 400 in 56.4.
I loved the Michigan because it was a little bit of everything. Track, road, hills, jogging, tempo, speed, and distance (13 miles total with warmup and cooldown). The toughest part was the first 1600 because it put you into oxygen debt with lactates building and you still had 7 miles of work to go. But you could tackle the workout in segments and each trip back to the track you knew was going to be of a shorter distance then the previous track portion. And the last 400 was just pure fun as you simply let it all out. It very much mimicked a 10,000 meter race where you went out hard, settled in, countered any surges, and kicked the last 400 hopefully faster than anyone else.
What Willis and Ferlic did in this same workout far surpasses anything that I ever did in a Michigan. If I did what they did, I would have thought 27:20 would be in my reach (later in July of 1986 I ran a PR of 27:58).
So this in my opinion is a monster workout but it is hard to grasp unless you run a Michigan. Many a good man dropped out of this workout because the road loops had the effect of a boxer working the body and the fast track times were like surviving a flurry of jabs and upper cuts. You knew you were ready when you ran a good Michigan. And it helped that Ron would confirm it with a "VERY NICE".
Awesome story/info/history. Thanks for sharing!
Bump for that awesome story
If I may ask, although it is a bit off topic; could you shed some light on your training Spring/summer of ‘91? I looked at some of your race results and saw that you broke 48 minutes for 10 miles and 4 minutes for 1 mile in the span of less than two months. Amazing career!
Gerard Donakowski wrote:
wisenheimer at work wrote:
in 2016 (may 24th) nick willis postet on twitter:
"1600- 4.20
1200- 3.11
800- 157
400- 51.8
4.55 mile pace for 2.1k road loops between each track rep."
and:
"250m jog to the road. Same after the road finishes to get to the track."
a 250m jog to the road is about 60sec for willis, i guess.
What Willis posted here is a "true Michigan". I ran about 30-40 of them in my competitive days from 1978 to 1992. I ran at Michigan and graduated in 1983. Ron was my coach during most of this time and remains a good friend today. In looking through my log books my best Michigan was probably May 29, 1986. I was three years out of Michigan and running for Nike's Athletic West and lived in Ann Arbor and often trained with the Michigan team (as I did on this day).
I ran:
1600 - 4:19
1200 -3:11
800 - 2:08
400 - 58.5
In between these track portions was a slow jog of about 250 meters to the road (probably took about 2 minutes) and for the 2K road loop (which in my day we did not time) I would guess was about 5:20 per mile pace. Then another 250 meter slow jog back to the track for the track portions. I wore racing flats throughout and no one ever stopped in the 8 mile continuous workout. There was no changing into spikes for the final 400.
We did the Michigan usually about a month before a big race (Big Tens/NCAA for collegiates, TAC National Championships for me). It was a good indication of race readiness as it demonstrated both strength and speed. And you could compare it to other Michigans as we usually did one early in the outdoor track season as well. For me, after this particular Michigan I knew I was very fit. Three weeks later I won the TAC 10,000 in 28:21 in a race that was tactical with many surges. My last lap was the difference as I ran the final 400 in 56.4.
I loved the Michigan because it was a little bit of everything. Track, road, hills, jogging, tempo, speed, and distance (13 miles total with warmup and cooldown). The toughest part was the first 1600 because it put you into oxygen debt with lactates building and you still had 7 miles of work to go. But you could tackle the workout in segments and each trip back to the track you knew was going to be of a shorter distance then the previous track portion. And the last 400 was just pure fun as you simply let it all out. It very much mimicked a 10,000 meter race where you went out hard, settled in, countered any surges, and kicked the last 400 hopefully faster than anyone else.
What Willis and Ferlic did in this same workout far surpasses anything that I ever did in a Michigan. If I did what they did, I would have thought 27:20 would be in my reach (later in July of 1986 I ran a PR of 27:58).
So this in my opinion is a monster workout but it is hard to grasp unless you run a Michigan. Many a good man dropped out of this workout because the road loops had the effect of a boxer working the body and the fast track times were like surviving a flurry of jabs and upper cuts. You knew you were ready when you ran a good Michigan. And it helped that Ron would confirm it with a "VERY NICE".
For context, Mr. Donakowski here, at 27:58.41, is the 75th fastest American ever over the distance.
In 2010, he was number 38.
One of those who carried the torch forward in order for those today to run their own PRs.
Gerard Donakowski wrote:
wisenheimer at work wrote:
in 2016 (may 24th) nick willis postet on twitter:
"1600- 4.20
1200- 3.11
800- 157
400- 51.8
4.55 mile pace for 2.1k road loops between each track rep."
and:
"250m jog to the road. Same after the road finishes to get to the track."
a 250m jog to the road is about 60sec for willis, i guess.
What Willis posted here is a "true Michigan". I ran about 30-40 of them in my competitive days from 1978 to 1992. I ran at Michigan and graduated in 1983. Ron was my coach during most of this time and remains a good friend today. In looking through my log books my best Michigan was probably May 29, 1986. I was three years out of Michigan and running for Nike's Athletic West and lived in Ann Arbor and often trained with the Michigan team (as I did on this day).
I ran:
1600 - 4:19
1200 -3:11
800 - 2:08
400 - 58.5
In between these track portions was a slow jog of about 250 meters to the road (probably took about 2 minutes) and for the 2K road loop (which in my day we did not time) I would guess was about 5:20 per mile pace. Then another 250 meter slow jog back to the track for the track portions. I wore racing flats throughout and no one ever stopped in the 8 mile continuous workout. There was no changing into spikes for the final 400.
We did the Michigan usually about a month before a big race (Big Tens/NCAA for collegiates, TAC National Championships for me). It was a good indication of race readiness as it demonstrated both strength and speed. And you could compare it to other Michigans as we usually did one early in the outdoor track season as well. For me, after this particular Michigan I knew I was very fit. Three weeks later I won the TAC 10,000 in 28:21 in a race that was tactical with many surges. My last lap was the difference as I ran the final 400 in 56.4.
I loved the Michigan because it was a little bit of everything. Track, road, hills, jogging, tempo, speed, and distance (13 miles total with warmup and cooldown). The toughest part was the first 1600 because it put you into oxygen debt with lactates building and you still had 7 miles of work to go. But you could tackle the workout in segments and each trip back to the track you knew was going to be of a shorter distance then the previous track portion. And the last 400 was just pure fun as you simply let it all out. It very much mimicked a 10,000 meter race where you went out hard, settled in, countered any surges, and kicked the last 400 hopefully faster than anyone else.
What Willis and Ferlic did in this same workout far surpasses anything that I ever did in a Michigan. If I did what they did, I would have thought 27:20 would be in my reach (later in July of 1986 I ran a PR of 27:58).
So this in my opinion is a monster workout but it is hard to grasp unless you run a Michigan. Many a good man dropped out of this workout because the road loops had the effect of a boxer working the body and the fast track times were like surviving a flurry of jabs and upper cuts. You knew you were ready when you ran a good Michigan. And it helped that Ron would confirm it with a "VERY NICE".
If Wejo or Rojo are seeing this, get this man on the podcast
Gerard Donakowski wrote:
So this in my opinion is a monster workout but it is hard to grasp unless you run a Michigan. Many a good man dropped out of this workout because the road loops had the effect of a boxer working the body and the fast track times were like surviving a flurry of jabs and upper cuts. You knew you were ready when you ran a good Michigan. And it helped that Ron would confirm it with a "VERY NICE".
awesome post.
(i like the last sentences here. i have no problem admitting that the michigan or similar big workouts weren't doing me any good. stole too many grains and it always went downhill quickly.)
Love the troll that said he did the whole workout continuous. You did 4km worth of 5k down to mile pace work interspersed with 6km of LT? You are a physical marvel. Rojo and Wejo should have YOU on the podcast!
patriotPatrick wrote:
Love the troll that said he did the whole workout continuous. You did 4km worth of 5k down to mile pace work interspersed with 6km of LT? You are a physical marvel. Rojo and Wejo should have YOU on the podcast!
In the words of President Joseph Biden, "You're a lying dog faced pony soldier!"
Yeah it looked like he was taking 2:00-2:30ish jogging rests in between the track work & tempos. Seems like a weird watch thing at the end & that this was 8 miles is 43ish. Pretty continuous with a lot of hard running. The tempos help build fatigue. Showed good closing speed on the 8 & 4. Should have a shot at the steeple.
+1 on those calling this out as a great post. Maybe I'm naive, but you must rank highly on the list of US runners whose name most people don't know!
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