Lindsay Crouse calls effort to keep biological men out of women's sports an "excuse for transphobia"

biological woman wrote:

Unfortunately I think the solution to the problem is that women have to stand up for themselves. Which we really aren't doing. No way in hell am I posting in this thread with my registered username. Women are rolling their eyes and staying quiet because they don't want to be called transphobic or bigoted. If I were #2 in an important race to a transgender woman I'd be pissed. But would I say anything? Probably not, because I wouldn't want to be accused of transphobia, or lose friends or my job because it's an unpopular stance.

There is some irony in this because women generally do NOT like to cause controversy or rock the boat. So by our very nature we are less likely to stand up for ourselves. We want to get along with others and we don't like it when other people hate us. Men care less about what others thing of them, generally speaking. So ironically this is how women's rights are being trampled on by people who were formerly men.

And the person who says they teach Orwell but this is not Orwellian probably should re-read 1984. The whole *idea* behind doublethink in 1984 is that fear and pressure to conform drives people to say words that contradict reality.

Biological sex is real. Trust the science.

biological woman wrote:

Unfortunately I think the solution to the problem is that women have to stand up for themselves. Which we really aren't doing. No way in hell am I posting in this thread with my registered username. Women are rolling their eyes and staying quiet because they don't want to be called transphobic or bigoted. If I were #2 in an important race to a transgender woman I'd be pissed. But would I say anything? Probably not, because I wouldn't want to be accused of transphobia, or lose friends or my job because it's an unpopular stance.

There is some irony in this because women generally do NOT like to cause controversy or rock the boat. So by our very nature we are less likely to stand up for ourselves. We want to get along with others and we don't like it when other people hate us. Men care less about what others thing of them, generally speaking. So ironically this is how women's rights are being trampled on by people who were formerly men.

And the person who says they teach Orwell but this is not Orwellian probably should re-read 1984. The whole *idea* behind doublethink in 1984 is that fear and pressure to conform drives people to say words that contradict reality.

Biological sex is real. Trust the science.

Lenny Leonard wrote:

biological woman wrote:

Unfortunately I think the solution to the problem is that women have to stand up for themselves. Which we really aren't doing. No way in hell am I posting in this thread with my registered username. Women are rolling their eyes and staying quiet because they don't want to be called transphobic or bigoted. If I were #2 in an important race to a transgender woman I'd be pissed. But would I say anything? Probably not, because I wouldn't want to be accused of transphobia, or lose friends or my job because it's an unpopular stance.

There is some irony in this because women generally do NOT like to cause controversy or rock the boat. So by our very nature we are less likely to stand up for ourselves. We want to get along with others and we don't like it when other people hate us. Men care less about what others thing of them, generally speaking. So ironically this is how women's rights are being trampled on by people who were formerly men.

And the person who says they teach Orwell but this is not Orwellian probably should re-read 1984. The whole *idea* behind doublethink in 1984 is that fear and pressure to conform drives people to say words that contradict reality.

Biological sex is real. Trust the science.

Here’s a little trick:

If you are afraid to say something because you are worried that it may be called transphobic, then it’s probably transphobic.

Same thing with worrying that what you say may be considered racist or idiotic.

I’m posting under the same registered handle I’ve had for over 15 years. I don’t worry about saying these things publicly, because to me it’s just common sense.

Tatar wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

I dont have a problem with trans men competing as males because I don't think that they would have an unfair advantage by virtue of their biology, whereas my understanding is that trans women are likely to have an advantage over cis women. My concern in this discussion is with fairness not identity. If trans women did not have the inherent physiological advantage they do I wouldn't have a problem with their competing as women.

In response to your other point about trans men competing as women, this would require - as I said previously - that they "transition" back to being female, such as by lowering their levels of testosterone. I very much doubt they would do that simply to make a political point.

I doubt they would transition back just for the purposes of sport but it's no less or more likely than a non trans individual pretending to be trans to win a medal or get a college scholarship - which seems to be a common paranoia.

They wouldn't necessarily have to reduce their T level though - I think it would very likely to be considered a TUE. As I say, the IAAF can't prevent prescription of sex hormones.

Arguably the case for a trans man being included in the women's division is more winnable than for a trans woman. I doubt it would come to fruition but I can imagine trans rights activists bring THAT case just to open the argument up.

Does ANYBODY want that? No. So just let trans women in the women's and trans men in the men's.

GD wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

So why do trans use the term "they" for themselves when no one else does as a term of self-description? Hard question for you, I know.

__________________

The use of "they" as a preferred pronoun for individuals sometimes happens when people want to identify as nonbinary. I've also seen trans people list gendered and gender neutral pronouns together--for example, saying my preferred pronouns are she/them.

I think it's mostly political. Some believe that gender neutral language decreases sexism. Others, having absorbed these theoretical/political perspectives as truth, sincerely view themselves as nonbinary. They view others' refusal to use they/them pronouns as an attack on their immutable selves.

What's interesting is that we could have a tolerant society that allows men and women to express themselves however they like, where women can be masculine, and men can be feminine. In this case, we recognize that the sexes exist but don't force behaviors on people on the basis of their sex. This approach is consistent with liberalism. We're all free to express ourselves and make our own decisions. Nobody is allowed to infringe on that freedom, but we're also not allowed to impose our ideas about self expression on others.

Instead, we see the current trans movement arguing that everybody has an immutable gender identity with infinite values along a spectrum from male to female, then asserting that this subjective identity ought to be recognized as such by all other people and the government. This cannot work in a free and liberal society. We cannot have a functioning pluralistic society in which everybody has to acknowledge and affirm the subjectivity of each and every other person. First, it's totalitarian to force others to accept our subjectivities as truthful. Second, it's narcissistic and antisocial. We have to agee to some shared structures of meaning in order to live among and communicate with others.

biological woman wrote:

Unfortunately I think the solution to the problem is that women have to stand up for themselves. Which we really aren't doing. No way in hell am I posting in this thread with my registered username. Women are rolling their eyes and staying quiet because they don't want to be called transphobic or bigoted. If I were #2 in an important race to a transgender woman I'd be pissed. But would I say anything? Probably not, because I wouldn't want to be accused of transphobia, or lose friends or my job because it's an unpopular stance.

There is some irony in this because women generally do NOT like to cause controversy or rock the boat. So by our very nature we are less likely to stand up for ourselves. We want to get along with others and we don't like it when other people hate us. Men care less about what others thing of them, generally speaking. So ironically this is how women's rights are being trampled on by people who were formerly men.

And the person who says they teach Orwell but this is not Orwellian probably should re-read 1984. The whole *idea* behind doublethink in 1984 is that fear and pressure to conform drives people to say words that contradict reality.

Biological sex is real. Trust the science.

truthoin wrote:

biological woman wrote:

Unfortunately I think the solution to the problem is that women have to stand up for themselves. Which we really aren't doing. No way in hell am I posting in this thread with my registered username. Women are rolling their eyes and staying quiet because they don't want to be called transphobic or bigoted. If I were #2 in an important race to a transgender woman I'd be pissed. But would I say anything? Probably not, because I wouldn't want to be accused of transphobia, or lose friends or my job because it's an unpopular stance.

There is some irony in this because women generally do NOT like to cause controversy or rock the boat. So by our very nature we are less likely to stand up for ourselves. We want to get along with others and we don't like it when other people hate us. Men care less about what others thing of them, generally speaking. So ironically this is how women's rights are being trampled on by people who were formerly men.

And the person who says they teach Orwell but this is not Orwellian probably should re-read 1984. The whole *idea* behind doublethink in 1984 is that fear and pressure to conform drives people to say words that contradict reality.

Biological sex is real. Trust the science.

yeah. Women are either standing up for trans women re: Lindsay Crouse, Nikki Hiltz, Rapinoe, which is totally their prerogative, or...staying silent. You really think that all these pro women are just okay with it? It's a complicated issue that needs more research and honestly the decision has to be fair.

Lenny Leonard wrote:

biological woman wrote:

Unfortunately I think the solution to the problem is that women have to stand up for themselves. Which we really aren't doing. No way in hell am I posting in this thread with my registered username. Women are rolling their eyes and staying quiet because they don't want to be called transphobic or bigoted. If I were #2 in an important race to a transgender woman I'd be pissed. But would I say anything? Probably not, because I wouldn't want to be accused of transphobia, or lose friends or my job because it's an unpopular stance.

There is some irony in this because women generally do NOT like to cause controversy or rock the boat. So by our very nature we are less likely to stand up for ourselves. We want to get along with others and we don't like it when other people hate us. Men care less about what others thing of them, generally speaking. So ironically this is how women's rights are being trampled on by people who were formerly men.

And the person who says they teach Orwell but this is not Orwellian probably should re-read 1984. The whole *idea* behind doublethink in 1984 is that fear and pressure to conform drives people to say words that contradict reality.

Biological sex is real. Trust the science.

Here’s a little trick:

If you are afraid to say something because you are worried that it may be called transphobic, then it’s probably transphobic.

Same thing with worrying that what you say may be considered racist or idiotic.

I’m posting under the same registered handle I’ve had for over 15 years. I don’t worry about saying these things publicly, because to me it’s just common sense.

truthoin wrote:

I think we're starting to conflate several different facets of this issue. Really we should be looking at every age group differently.

Trans youth (k-8)--I don't care. Identify how you want. Compete with whatever team you want. We take youth sports WAY too seriously as it is. It used to be that kids just played outside til dusk with each other. But then scared helicopter parents took that away and organized sports became the consolation. Just let kids play and don't freak out over an 8 year old's softball game.

High School--This is truly the gray area where I have no answers. Because sports are serious for the top level kids but ultimately still about participation. Also they are still kids and should be allowed to play.

College (NCAA)/Professional--There needs to be more research about physical advantages before any steps can be made. To take steps now would be super discriminatory without proper research done and in good faith. But I do actually agree with Rojo--professional sports aren't a "human right". I do however, think that youth sports are. We shouldn't ban kids from having fun and being a part of things.