Threshold workouts

4x16min @ threshold is a killer workout if not a race effort. The recovery would take probably a week. I wouldn't recommend this session to anyone.

In general training threshold is sufficiently achieved with max. of 35min if broken up into segments or 25min if done steadily.

I'd advise starting out with something like 4x5mins w/ 1min jog in between. Keep the pace consistent.

Progression for that could look something like this:

5x5min w/ 1min

4x6min w/ 1min

4x7min w/ 1min

6x5min w/ 1min

4x8min w/ 1min

Complement this with steady runs, starting with 15min and progress from there.

Keep in mind, that the pace on these runs should be slightly slower than with the broken sets.

Just don't start them too hard and die towards the end. It is better to undercook in the beginning and speed up over the course of the run, maybe even hitting paces a pinch faster than threshold towards the end.

Good luck with the training and stay safe.

Most people when they say “threshold” are referring to “one-hour race pace.” So the workout you described would be 64 minutes of running at 60 minute race pace. That’s race effort, not a workout.

I would suggest 3 x 10 minutes at threshold pace with 1-2 minute jog in-between, for a much more manageable workout, while still getting an LT stimulus. Remember too that it’s better to run a touch slower than threshold pace than a touch faster.

I find marathon-pace runs to be very beneficial for improving strength. Try a 30-40 minute continuous run at your current marathon pace (use Jack Daniels calculator to approximate).

you must define your terms wrote:

Most people when they say “threshold” are referring to “one-hour race pace.” So the workout you described would be 64 minutes of running at 60 minute race pace. That’s race effort, not a workout.

I would suggest 3 x 10 minutes at threshold pace with 1-2 minute jog in-between, for a much more manageable workout, while still getting an LT stimulus. Remember too that it’s better to run a touch slower than threshold pace than a touch faster.

I find marathon-pace runs to be very beneficial for improving strength. Try a 30-40 minute continuous run at your current marathon pace (use Jack Daniels calculator to approximate).

It is more like MP pace than 60 min pace if you read the studies. That still might be too much work unless you are highly trained. Realistically you should be doing all these workouts. Do stuff at MP. Do do HM. Do do intervals. Do continuous runs. Do progressions from slower than MP up to 15k pace. They all work on your aerobic capacity in slightly different ways.

If you haven’t done much threshold work before, anywhere from 20-30 minutes is a good range to work through. break it up into 3 to 10 minute reps. Rest can be jogging walking or standing it doesn’t matter.

I would appreciate a reference to any such studies.

You in high school? The basic no. Scientific definition of threshold work to me is it’s a fast effort, but still under control; like you could go faster to your next gear or gears. 20 min of total work tops per session if you are in fact in high school

hobby coach wrote:

ddidididid wrote:

It is more like MP pace than 60 min pace if you read the studies. That still might be too much work unless you are highly trained. Realistically you should be doing all these workouts. Do stuff at MP. Do do HM. Do do intervals. Do continuous runs. Do progressions from slower than MP up to 15k pace. They all work on your aerobic capacity in slightly different ways.

I would appreciate a reference to any such studies.

Google 4x16 workout and you can get papers. I think all of them are based on cyclist but you can sort of translate the HR to approximate race paces.

Pfitz describes 4-8 miles at threshold.

ddidididid wrote:

It is more like MP pace than 60 min pace if you read the studies.

It's between 10K and 1/2 pace for most people.

The 4x16 intervals you are referring too are absolutely threshold intervals assuming you are talking about the 2013 paper comparing 4x4 4x8 and 4x16.

These are done at the highest sustainable power for the duration. Lactate is about 5mM and the power is at VT2.

But ON THE BIKE. Totally different. Trying to replicate these workouts is not a good idea.

Doing greater volumes of race pace work on the bike is doable. I currently do my 90 minute bike race pace for 90 minutes no bother as 3x30 minutes and do it 2 days later. That’s not happening with running.

There is the mechanical damage ,but I think running is more taxing on the CNS. Generally you can push yourself to the edge on the bike with no I’ll effects as long as you are trained and make sure you recover ok. Be more conservative with running.

Good input. The nature of how the muscles work in running vs cycling is very different. Running has a large part of passive loading of muscles and a stretch-reflex function and being quite isometric (high force and small range of motion at least for quads and calves). Cycling has got much larger motions and is mostly active (not reflexive) use of different muscles to make a smooth and steady force in the circular motion.

I guess this is also the reason running and cycling training don't translate very much. Of course the basic fitness and endurance translates well enough, but running does not make you an excellent cyclist and vice versa. The law of specificity applies.

fatsos wrote:

ddidididid wrote:

It is more like MP pace than 60 min pace if you read the studies.

It's between 10K and 1/2 pace for most people.

85% HR is about marathon for trained runners. Bike is a bit lower but not enough to get you to HM heart rates. Note that they were supposed to be done as hard as possible not at a given HR. I expect most people might be closer to 30k pace than marathon but we are looking at a level of accuracy that just isn't there.

ddidididid wrote:

fatsos wrote:

It's between 10K and 1/2 pace for most people.

85% HR is about marathon for trained runners. Bike is a bit lower but not enough to get you to HM heart rates. Note that they were supposed to be done as hard as possible not at a given HR. I expect most people might be closer to 30k pace than marathon but we are looking at a level of accuracy that just isn't there.

Did they use the cycling specific max HR or actually testing it on the bike? I have a considerably lower max HR for cycling.

Jon Arne Glomsrud wrote:

Did they use the cycling specific max HR or actually testing it on the bike? I have a considerably lower max HR for cycling.

Been a long time since I read the paper but I would assume they did the VO2 and HR tests on a bike in the lab. Again the workout wasnt to exercise at 85% HR. It was do to do 4*16 as hard as possible while keeping the exertion even. You would need to do it a couple times to figure out where your HR would be. And you better be a pretty high mileage runner.

I am referring to that study. Should I be doing my threshold intervals on a trainer?

ddidididid wrote:

hobby coach wrote:

I would appreciate a reference to any such studies.

Google 4x16 workout and you can get papers. I think all of them are based on cyclist but you can sort of translate the HR to approximate race paces.

I found some links. Thanks.

By trainer I mean stationary bike.

RunnerWithoutAnAerobicBase wrote:

By trainer I mean stationary bike.

The advantage of training on a treadmill/stationary is that it makes it easier to control factors. And you don't have to worry about getting hit by a car/crashing. I am unaware of other advantages.

Personally I would never read to much into a study. They all have limitations and aren't really realistic.

Would a bike threshold session transfer over to running?