Have my first marathon coming up this summer and thought I'd get some good training workouts from the marathon pros here. What are your favorite/best marathon training workouts you have done? How many miles per week were you averaging?
Looking to break 2:40 and trying to create a better training plan.
Thanks!
1) 6x1600 @10K - aerobic power
2) Long run 25% of weekly mileage or marathon time (160min) - aerobic resistance
3) 10K @HM - aerobic power
4) 16K @M - specific endurance
5) 16K @Easy+16K @M=160min (marathon time) - specific endurance
12weeks, minimum volume is 80miles (128km) in order to handle these workouts
1. 10 miles easy, 10 miles marathon pace
2. Any long run finishing at marathon pace
Anything else is just "improving fitness".
Marathon pace is easy. Marathon pace while fatigued is not.
I would often run back to back workouts. Day 1 run 4+ miles at HM pace. Day 2 run 9-12mi at MP. Add in the fact that you're running doubles and you're now trying to run MP while kinda fatigued.
Throw in random miles at MP. You need to be able to find that groove. If not then you end up going out way too fast in your marathon or struggle to find that sweet spot.
Be effective at drinking water on the run. The marathon is also a battle of thermodynamics.
Alan
Canefis wrote:
1) 6x1600 @10K - aerobic power
2) Long run 25% of weekly mileage or marathon time (160min) - aerobic resistance
3) 10K @HM - aerobic power
4) 16K @M - specific endurance
5) 16K @Easy+16K @M=160min (marathon time) - specific endurance
12weeks, minimum volume is 80miles (128km) in order to handle these workouts
This person has never run a 5km, 10km or half marathon race, let alone trained for or completed a full marathon.
Yes, but he studied under the magic wizard coach JS (the source of all running knowledge)
are you serious wrote:
Canefis wrote:
1) 6x1600 @10K - aerobic power
2) Long run 25% of weekly mileage or marathon time (160min) - aerobic resistance
3) 10K @HM - aerobic power
4) 16K @M - specific endurance
5) 16K @Easy+16K @M=160min (marathon time) - specific endurance
12weeks, minimum volume is 80miles (128km) in order to handle these workouts
This person has never run a 5km, 10km or half marathon race, let alone trained for or completed a full marathon.
These are not my workouts, but respectful Coach (MPR).
are you serious wrote:
Canefis wrote:
1) 6x1600 @10K - aerobic power
2) Long run 25% of weekly mileage or marathon time (160min) - aerobic resistance
3) 10K @HM - aerobic power
4) 16K @M - specific endurance
5) 16K @Easy+16K @M=160min (marathon time) - specific endurance
12weeks, minimum volume is 80miles (128km) in order to handle these workouts
This person has never run a 5km, 10km or half marathon race, let alone trained for or completed a full marathon.
No more than 2 workouts per week if mileage 80+
If mileage less then 80, no more than 1 workout per week (once per 10 days)
Long run is considered as a workout.
Typical schedule:
E;E;E;16K @M;E;E;Long run
E;E;E;6x1600 @10K;E;16KE+16M
E;E;E;10 @HM;E;E;Long run
E;E;E;6x1600 @10K;E;E;16KE+16M
E;E;E;16K @M;E;E;Long run
Marathon Hobby Jogger wrote:
Have my first marathon coming up this summer and thought I'd get some good training workouts from the marathon pros here. What are your favorite/best marathon training workouts you have done? How many miles per week were you averaging?
Looking to break 2:40 and trying to create a better training plan.
Thanks!
For sub-2:40, most are probably training in the 70-80+ range. As far as times go you'll need a 16:30ish 5k, 34:30ish 10k, and a 1:15-1:16 half. 10 @ 6:00 pace in an 18-20 miler, feeling somewhat comfortable, is going to tell you you're on track.
Long run workouts: 8 @ M in a 16-17, 10 @ M in a 18-20, 12-13 @ M in a 18-21, 15 @ M in a 18-22, tempo w./ easy distance in between- 2-3 up, 4 @ M, 1 hr easy, 4 @ M, 2-3 down, alternating miles or k's- 2-3 up, alternate 1 @ M, 1 E (1k @ M, 1k easy) (6-10 reps), 2-3 down, 3 x 3 or 4 miles @ M.
Mid-Week Threshold Sessions- 8-10 x mile @ T, 4-5 x 2 miles @ T, 3 x 3 miles @ M >>> HM, 12-15 x 1km, etc.
What's the point of all these M pace runs? There's literally zero benefit from M pace.
NERunner0053 wrote:
Marathon Hobby Jogger wrote:
Have my first marathon coming up this summer and thought I'd get some good training workouts from the marathon pros here. What are your favorite/best marathon training workouts you have done? How many miles per week were you averaging?
Looking to break 2:40 and trying to create a better training plan.
Thanks!
For sub-2:40, most are probably training in the 70-80+ range. As far as times go you'll need a 16:30ish 5k, 34:30ish 10k, and a 1:15-1:16 half. 10 @ 6:00 pace in an 18-20 miler, feeling somewhat comfortable, is going to tell you you're on track.
Long run workouts: 8 @ M in a 16-17, 10 @ M in a 18-20, 12-13 @ M in a 18-21, 15 @ M in a 18-22, tempo w./ easy distance in between- 2-3 up, 4 @ M, 1 hr easy, 4 @ M, 2-3 down, alternating miles or k's- 2-3 up, alternate 1 @ M, 1 E (1k @ M, 1k easy) (6-10 reps), 2-3 down, 3 x 3 or 4 miles @ M.
Mid-Week Threshold Sessions- 8-10 x mile @ T, 4-5 x 2 miles @ T, 3 x 3 miles @ M >>> HM, 12-15 x 1km, etc.
Look up thread 5 key marathon workouts
Besides just normal workouts, which still apply-- long threshold work, like 10-15 x 1k, 8 x mile, 4 x 2 miles, 3-4 x 3 miles, 10 miles alternations (mile @ threshold, mile float).
It's wrong to say that there's no benefit to running at MP, but there's not a lot of bang for your buck. Still worth doing once or twice to get some mental practice, figure out fueling, lock in the effort.
For elites every sub seconds counts so training at M pace makes sense to avoid any mistakes.
For the majority of people, it is too taxing and has zero benefits, unless there is an evidence which currently doesn't exist.
Yasso 800s- Probably the fastest you should be running during training. 800 reps at your goal ‘thon time with equal rest.
800s in 2:40 for you(yes that’s 5:20 pace).
Start with 4, build to 10. Once every 3 weeks.
Long runs at your goal time. Easy 2:40 long run once every 3 weeks, last 40 min at goal pace.
Most important part of your training is consistently getting out the door 6-7 days a week.
Easy week long run 90 min (last 30 min at goal pace)
Medium week 2 hours (last 30 min at goal pace)
Hard week 2 hour 40 min (last 40 min at goal pace)
5x18
EOT
Kvothe wrote:
Look up thread 5 key marathon workouts
This is what Canefis claims he is ripping off. I think he actually posted on it, which brought it back into public consciousness briefly. MPR apparently was respected at the time. My take is that there are couple real good ones:
10E+10M. Popular with LRC crowd; his thread may be where it originated. I like it and other similar, faster-finish long runs.
24 E-moderate. This is great. The traditional 20 just isn't long enough to train for miles 22-26 in my experience. Not to be ideally prepared, anyway.
But MPR also lists a few non-specific workouts. These are good prep for a 15k or HM. I don't believe they are really crucial, key marathon workouts. Canefis parrots some of this, but let me admit this: his list is better than MPR's (by my estimation). Just de-emphasise the shorter, faster stuff. If you do 2 long, specific runs for each faster, HM specific one, that's probably good and you can use MPR or Canefis ideas.
M pace wrote:
For elites every sub seconds counts so training at M pace makes sense to avoid any mistakes.
For the majority of people, it is too taxing and has zero benefits, unless there is an evidence which currently doesn't exist.
Zero benefits? So you don't believe that running is effective training for running? It does not benefit the runner in any way? Zero benefits?
Let me say for the sake of argument that there is no health benefit derived from running. That may or may not be true, but let's say it is. Then here is the benefit: it makes you a better runner. Even if being a faster runner is all you get, that is much more than zero benefit.
You claim that anyone running at marathon pace and someone else not running at all get the same benefit. The one who never ran a stride got zero benefits. The one running at marathon got exactly the same: zero benefit. Running at marathon pace is exactly the same as not running. Literally zero benefit.
I assume they're saying it's no better than easy pace, since it doesn't fall into one of Daniels' (4?) official paces.
I disagree and think thon pace is ideal tempo pace IF one's legs are tired from heavy mileage, which should be the case for marathon training.
Re OP's question, for the marathon, I view long runs as the key workouts. Speedwork seems mostly irrelevant, though some easy speed sessions might add some nice variety and keep things fresh/interesting.
I’m reluctant to engage with someone who used the phrase ”thon pace,” yet here I am.
Daniels would say that tempo is an effort and not a pace, but that that specific effort typically results in a certain pace (within some reasonable range). Lots of factors play into what the actual pace associated with a particular effort will be. Among those is the effect of cumulative fatigue, or having dead legs.
So I think we end up at the same place - lots of different places may be good, but for different reasons (mine being that particular efforts yield different paces under different conditions).
mwh wrote:
I assume they're saying it's no better than easy pace, since it doesn't fall into one of Daniels' (4?) official paces.
I disagree and think thon pace is ideal tempo pace IF one's legs are tired from heavy mileage, which should be the case for marathon training.
Re OP's question, for the marathon, I view long runs as the key workouts. Speedwork seems mostly irrelevant, though some easy speed sessions might add some nice variety and keep things fresh/interesting.
Nevertheless, the poster typed 'zero benefits' once and 'literally zero benefit' another time. There is only one interpretation to this: running at this pace does not advance fitness. It has exactly the same effect as watching 'Gilligan's Island'. The latter has 'literally zero benefit'. Running at marathon pace is exactly the same. Your fitness will not advance in any way, at all, just like watching TV.
I'm not saying this, the poster in question is. Enough of that. I believe NErunner posted great workouts. Even Canefis, who may have broken up with JS and doesn't seem to reflect the Wizard's philosophy, had some good ideas, with the caveat that the 10k-HM specific sessions can be just maintenance and the longer and more marathon-specific get first priority.
Now, Smoove is a bigger Daniels expert than I and many of us, so he could elaborate further. An M-pace appears in later editions of the Formula. Perhaps it's just the most recent one. In fact, he gives a chart demonstrating a continuum from T-pace (which is often suggested for 20 min. or slightly longer tempos) to slightly slower for a somewhat longer tempo, and it ends at M-pace, at which efforts longer than an hour can be reasonably done.
Anyway, I agree with you, mwh. Long runs of various sorts are the key, with some 'speed' added in maybe, but what a 10k runner would call 'speed work' is low priority and can be occasionally done for variety. In fact, it seems this thread has various good advice with the exception of the poster who seems to believe that only certain paces can benefit the runner. Not only does any running benefit the runner, but marathon pace is of utmost importance when training for your best possible marathon performance.
Can you prove that running M pace is better than running 90% M pace?
No you can't.
Again for the elites that 10% marginal error. So yes it does make sense to train at M pace.
For the rest, go 90% and get the same benefits.