Team Boss broken?

I do think people underestimate what Nike has to offer - they have top physical therapists, top facilities, top doctors, top support in pretty much every area, and emphasis on strength training helps a lot. I also think that having the best of the best to train with is going to push you harder. Think about training with Shelby, Karissa, Gabrielle, etc. versus training on Team Boss. You're constantly striving to be a lot better because you see how good the competition is and you want to beat them. I think BTC just has a lot of benefits that aren't necessarily specific to physical training.

The BTC athletes are just better coming in than Team Boss's. Emma of course is a multiple world medalist, but what about the rest? Aisha is so good she has to represent another country, for instance.

Dani just started, would love to see her succeed but her events are already stacked with great athletes.

plop wrote:

First of all, Tinman isn’t a high mileage team. Team Boss seems to be higher but they’re barely scraping 100 mpw at their peak for 5k guys like McDonald. Ritz’s group (OAC) is at 110 mpw (for Klecker at least) and BTC is at that level or maybe a little higher. I don’t think Team Boss has that much access to high quality facilities, but Tinman does and they’re not doing great either.

Wrong.

Each group mentioned has a degree of tailored training for each athlete.

Know for a fact 85 miles per week is common and some of the older guys do 90 to 100

This is correct.

hmmmmmmmm wrote:

Hoare is running with Klecker and Villarreal with Team On.

With a better coach

Bosshard athletes are doing fine. Praught has improved, won CWG, but injuries happen. McGee has improved significantly and is a posterchild for his training. Jones will be fine, she's in a good environment. The last couple meets his athletes have just looked tired ... which is normal for February in an Olympic year. The training is different from Wetmore in that it's 21st century training but still has that periodized influence so I expect his athletes to be somewhat flat at this point. I think McDonald vs Klecker is a good illustration of Ritzenhein being a pretty damn good coach, especially this early in his career. Klecker has continued to improve, ran a great 10k debut, Monson has the Olympic qualifying time in the 10k, he's brought Falland almost all the way back from the dead, Hoare is rolling and will be a 3:32 / 13:15 guy this summer.

To close the loop, Tom Schwartz has no experience with the highest level of the sport and it shows.

And oh yeah Schumacher. He has better athletes to start out with - all of them NCAA champs at least once - and just bludgeons them. Ask Lisa Koll how he approaches thyroid problems.

Actually, Boulder is colder in the winter than Sandnes NO, but receives less precipitation. Running outside in Boulder in winter is usually no problem, but all it takes is that one icy spot.

I think people over-estimate the "massive resources" at BTCs disposal. Their weights coach is a restauranteur, their tempo sessions are done at a public field across from a homeless camp, and they've had basically no gym access in Portland most of covid. Better equipped than many track teams, but Portland chat is definite envy from BTC to NOP RE: swoosh support.

I think if you're looking for an explanation as to why BTC > Team Boss, it's down to combo of talent + size + "culture." Emma is a great steepler, but aside from her you can just compare the two rosters and say "yup, BTC have the better horses" to start with.

Second is the size - having that larger squad enables you to take risks with who you bring on. Jerry brought on Gwen and that hasn't really panned out, but he also took a chance on Tuntivate and now he looks like a genius. BTC added Sinclaire Johnson, GDS, Amos Bartelsmeyer and Kieran Tuntivate last year alone. That's like half the size of Boss right there (and RE talent - that's an NCAA champ/4th at US champs being added plus the #2 all time North American in the 1500). Even if 3/4 blow up you can still look good with the 4th.

Finally culture. Success begets success. Shelby has a breakthrough then Karissa works her butt off to keep up and has breakthrough, which makes Cranny say "why not me" and GDS likes the look of it all so leaves Scotland. In team Boss, you have one bona fide world class athlete in Coburn, but if she isn't feeling a workout or isn't as good at X or Y in training who else is pushing the pace? At BTC if Shelby has stayed up too late by Call of Duty with Centro, you have a 3:56, a 4:00, a 4:03 etc in the 1500 and what, six or seven sub 14:50 5k women to drive things.

Talent x Numbers. I don't think Boss is doing poorly per se, but if they want to get to another level they need to a) get another Coburn/Houlihan/Ahmed/GDS? level stud. And b) perhaps actively recruit a bit more with a greater willingness to take risks there too.

Wetmore has never had pros run indoors other than obligatory NB GP, right? Wouldn’t be surprised if Boss is at least on the same page as far as not emphasizing it.

Does BTC still talk in Badger Miles?

Boss has nothing to offer beyond coaching and possibly a housing discount, access to RallySport for pool/weights, and at-cost New Balance shoes. No salary, no health insurance, no travel funds, etc.

fhiiyydd788 wrote:

Wetmore has never had pros run indoors other than obligatory NB GP, right? Wouldn’t be surprised if Boss is at least on the same page as far as not emphasizing it.

Does BTC still talk in Badger Miles?

Don’t think they call them Badger Miles but call them Jerry miles now.

Flo from Progressive wrote:

Boss has nothing to offer beyond coaching and possibly a housing discount, access to RallySport for pool/weights, and at-cost New Balance shoes. No salary, no health insurance, no travel funds, etc.

Did you know the same mostly goes for BTC? Like athletes don't "sign" with BTC/Schumacher. They just have their Nike contract which 100% doesn't offer health insurance (top tier athletes get their health insurance from USATF, if you ain't that good then pray you can get on your partner's plan), or housing subsidies. Being part of BTC is Nike are sponsoring you and then a handshake agreement with Jerry on top of that.

Obviously every pro contract is different, but the overwhelming majority of top pros have travel funds and free kit built into their contract. Again that's all through the shoe sponsor not through individual groups.

So yes, I imagine most if not all the Team Boss athletes have a) salary b) travel funds c) if American health insurance through USATF d) more free kit from their sponsor than they know what to do with. The one area that Boss is different though is that AFAIK BTC athletes don't have to pay Schumacher while Boss athletes have to contribute (I've heard variations from % of winnings, a flat fee, and other stuff but they don't get free coaching).

hoy-yes wrote:

The BTC athletes are just better coming in than Team Boss's. Emma of course is a multiple world medalist, but what about the rest? Aisha is so good she has to represent another country, for instance.

Dani just started, would love to see her succeed but her events are already stacked with great athletes.

Maybe overall, but McDonald for example was consistently dunking on guys like Fisher and McGorty in college, but that seems to have reversed. McDonald used to have that extra gear, but now it seems that Fisher and McGorty have developed another gear beyond that. Idk what BTC is doing but it's certainly working.

Fair enough, though foreigners like Dom Scott and Aisha Leer shouldn't be getting anything through USATF. I can see McDonald, Coburn, Jones, Thweatt, and McGee getting A, B, C, and D though nobody else is. Scott might still get all of that via adidas, I doubt Leer gets more than D. You're right, that covers the majority of the team. But of course those are all individual deals, it's going to be difficult for them to compete for athletes who don't already have significant sponsorship deals or already live in Boulder.

McDonald is Australian...

Aisha Praught-Leer was born in Illinois and has lived in the US her whole life. She just happens to represent Jamaica because it's her father's country and she probably isn't good enough for the US team (definitely behind Coburn, Frerichs, and Quigley, likely behind Garcia, Ostrander, and others as well).

` wrote:

hoy-yes wrote:

The BTC athletes are just better coming in than Team Boss's. Emma of course is a multiple world medalist, but what about the rest? Aisha is so good she has to represent another country, for instance.

Dani just started, would love to see her succeed but her events are already stacked with great athletes.

Maybe overall, but McDonald for example was consistently dunking on guys like Fisher and McGorty in college, but that seems to have reversed. McDonald used to have that extra gear, but now it seems that Fisher and McGorty have developed another gear beyond that. Idk what BTC is doing but it's certainly working.

Or it's February of an olympic year and fisher was known to do more off less. Maybe not to the level of Justin Knight. It's also not like mcdonald was just clearly another caliber of runner compare to fisher.

Didn't mcdonald redshirt a year too?

Fisher was extremely undertrained running-wise in HS. He played soccer and tons of other sports, and his coach kept mileage and running stimulus extremely low, with no speed work (anaerobic work) in it. Even in college, he started with much lower mileage than the typical college runner, and it took years to slowly bring him up progressively.

This "patience" ultimately paid off, Fisher won't consider McDonald a threat anymore in the future, his real threat/competitors are the likes of Chelimo, Mead, Lomong and Hunter (well.. forget about Hunter actually :p).