How much Lactate Threshold work per week?

Note, I'm the OP, and sometimes go by the handle "hr measurement" or "Jack Daniels Calculator" on this forum.

hr measurement wrote:

Judging by muscle stiffness hours later, these sessions, although performed below the 2nd Lactate Point, accumulate blood lactate that takes a while post-workout to clear.

Lactate Threshold Point 1 (LT1) occurs when blood starts accumulating lactate, at around 2mmol, per the following slide**:

**Source:

LT2 occurs around 4mmol, when blood lactate rapidly accumulates. Per my current understanding, although the Ingebritsen's are know for voluminous "Lactate Threshold" training (as discussed earlier in this thread), a significant number of their 'Lactate Threshold" reps are conducted at paces between LT1 and LT2 (using a lactate meter for purposes of intensity modulation) .

A couple questions

A) how did you calculate your max heart rate

B) do you think you could do these workout with 60s rest

B) do you think you could do 16 mins of work with no rest

D) how about 30 mins

If you are running at LT pace, the answer is no problem.

Given the peak heart and drifts up and your description, it sounds like you are running well above the LT point.

I don’t think the muscle stiffness is indicative of lactate taking any longer to clear. Lactate is lactate. I figure the incline was harder on your muscles than running on flat ground and they got sore.

3 minutes rest is unusually long for a threshold session with reps that short. I’m curious what readings you’d get if you actually took blood samples and measured the lactate concentration at the end of one interval and right before the start of the next. If you can afford a lactate meter, I’m sure others on this thread would want to know the results as well

(A) A maximum of 168bpm was pegged a couple of times in the all-out 12-min Time Trial on Feb 23, last Tuesday. Prior to that, I assumed it was 171bpm which I pegged for about 20 seconds last year in a 5k race, when running up a short but unexpected hill about midway through the race.

(B) Yes, particularly in light of the fact that I keep the heart rate in the proper zone, and slow down as necessary in order to do so.

(C) Yes, I could probably run 16 minutes contiguously on a track at near the same pace as 4min reps on a track, keeping within the same heart rate zone; the average HR of the continuous run would be slightly higher.

(D) My Garmin tells me my Lactate Threshold is 156bpm. I've run 20 minute tempos below that HR in the past. Average pace might be a little slower due to cardiac drift? Not sure how much slower.

Where do you see the peak heart rate drifting up? I can always slow down to reduce peak heart rate; those reps with a higher heart rate are cases where I didn't slow down as much as other reps, but the average paces, and average heart rates of the reps all came in fairly close to each other. The HR High Alert would typically first go off less than one minute into the rep.

I'm running well above the LT1 point, not the LT2 point.

That may be true, if not partially related. What are all the mechanisms that cause DOMS, anyway? It seems I was getting some 'stiffness after prolonged sitting' when running reps on the track too...although those reps (if you read earlier in the thread) were done at higher average HR. I did run that 7x4min session at the track on Feb 25 using the same HR alerts. I think there was a bit of stiffness after prolonged sitting, but I don't recall. The Alactic Sprints yesterday may also be factoring into my condition today.

The 3mins is to clear blood lactate. The idea is to build base fitness, even year round, while still getting in some running time between LT1 and LT2, rather than just run all easy below LT1.

This would be an interesting experiment. I don't live in an area near facilities that would have that capability. I'm currently not familiar with the meter requirements, and whether I possibly could find a good used one on Ebay? Maybe I could turn around and sell it after using it a few times, to some other interested LRC participants?

The EPOC Training Load** of the 7x4min track session on Feb 25 was 105.

Feb 27 AM

Hill Circuit on Roads, EPOC Load: 96

Feb 27 PM

Hill Circuit on Roads, EPOC Load: 87

Mar 1 AM

Treadmill, 5% Incline, EPOC Load: 107

Mar 1 PM

Hill Circuit on Roads, EPOC Load: 95

Feb 28 PM

7x15sec (3min recovery) Alactic Sprints on 6% grade hill, EPOC Load: 32.

The EPOC Training Load of the 12-min Time Trial last Tuesday was 163.

The EPOC Training Load of the 5k race last October, in which I pegged 171bpm* was 318!

The EPOC Training Load of a 5k race a week later (probably not fully recovered, with slower finishing time), in which I only pegged 169bpm was 219.

*Actually, there was one data point (data recorded once per second) where I pegged 174bpm!! But since it was only a singular data point, I rejected that as my maximum, and accepted 171bpm as my maximum Heart Rate, since I pegged it for ~20seconds.

**More info on EPOC Training Load:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoKB7b70VGU

The effect of DOMS starts hours after exercises and peaks around 48-72 hours (when you’re most sore). The cause is just micro tears in the muscle fibers and increased inflammation as a result of hard exercise.

You’re sitting after running reps on the track? No wonder, the blood is probably pooling in your legs. It might be contributing to some acute muscle soreness. I don’t think it’s DOMS. You’re also undermining your body’s ability to use lactate when the blood pools like that.. If you’re trying to clear lactate faster, a jog actually does a way better job than sitting or walking.

Blood lactate isn’t a bad thing, it’s fuel. If you clear it out before every rep, it seems like you’re almost starting over and not getting the full benefit of the session. You could do 16 minutes at threshold straight through, even in the base phase. Correct me if I’m wrong, but you seem to be taking a spin off of Lydiard where you only do easy runs in the base phase plus these very low intensity threshold sessions as some form of moderate intensity maintenance. More modern approaches integrate threshold, tempo, and 10k pace workouts into the base phase but with less intensity than mid or late season.

Kicker wrote:

You’re sitting after running reps on the track?

Of course not. I'm sitting here hours later at my desk, finishing dinner, perusing (and contributing to the LRC) forum, and I can feel the tightness when I get up and walk.

Kicker wrote:

Correct me if I’m wrong, but you seem to be taking a spin off of Lydiard where you only do easy runs in the base phase plus these very low intensity threshold sessions as some form of moderate intensity maintenance. More modern approaches integrate threshold, tempo, and 10k pace workouts into the base phase but with less intensity than mid or late season.

You'll have to re-read the thread; in summary, I'm taking an approach that borrows from something ('The Norwegian 4x4min Method') proven in the Scientific Literature (at least per their studies lasting a few weeks). I'm adjusting their basic protocol, for now. I'm kicking up the number of 4x4min sessions per week, but I'm keeping the HR in the bottom half of their 85-95% window, per the protocol. Their studies used a 3-min recovery.

I'm trying to get in at least one swim session between the 4x4min sessions to help in clearing the lactate; e.g., I swam a mile (w/fins) after this morning's 4x4min session.

Ah I see, my mistake. If it’s hours later, yeah, it’s probably the start of DOMS. Lactate doesn’t hang around in your system for hours. You’re just starting to feel sore from the workout. You may be more sore tomorrow, but foam rolling and self massaging your legs tonight will help alleviate that a bit. You will be less restricted in your motion at the very least.

After taking a brief winter break, my total Training Load has spike (understandably with these 4x4's over the last two weeks; you can see the 7-day trend here:

https://ibb.co/CzCWJBq

From what I’ve seen of the Norwegian 4 x 4 method, it seems like something used for general health and athletes doing non-endurance specific training (like soccer, as opposed to running or cycling). It’s a great way for them to improve their threshold without having to do all the other work that distance runners do. The reps are short, the rest is long, and the intensity is manageable enough to do for months on end without burning them out. It looks like a good approach for most people outside of specialized endurance sports.

If you’re training specifically for endurance sports, I think the workouts are too watered down. You may see progress, but I suspect it will be very slow compared to traditional distance training (adjusted to individual ability, of course).

Kicker wrote:

The reps are short,

I think you mean the # of reps per session are short, because a 4min rep for a decent 5k guy (not this 60 yr old) is well beyond 1k in distance.

Kicker wrote:...the rest is long, and the intensity is manageable enough to do for months on end without burning them out. It looks like a good approach for most people outside of specialized endurance sports.

If you’re training specifically for endurance sports, I think the workouts are too watered down. You may see progress, but I suspect it will be very slow compared to traditional distance training (adjusted to individual ability, of course).

I think you need to rethink at least some of your position, after reading carefully the posts from European 'bengel' on this thread, because evidently the reputation of the protocol from outsiders, is that it is too intense, and will burn out athletes if carried out for too many weeks. Yes, when I was hitting the upper end of the HR window (>92% HRmax) in sessions last summer, with the max sometimes >95% HRmax, those sessions were considerably more intense than what I'm doing now.

If peering at this more carefully, I quite possibly am doing something akin to what the Ingebrigtsen's are doing, with their modulated intensity between LT1 and LT2 (i.e., short of actually having a Lactate Meter to find out).

This session I discuss above was from the first page of this thread. The EPOC Training Load for the session was 160! The heart rate targets set on the watch were 150-154bpm, versus targets of 142-145bpm for the four sessions over the last two days (which had EPOC Training Loads in the range 87-107).

Regarding max HR. I think a method of 6 min run in a long moderate hill (or treadmill at 5% maybe) starting at a moderat/tempo pace and increasing pace every 1min until the last minute is all out. The max reading should be added 3-4-5 strokes and I think this is a good max HR predictor. I have been close to my estimated max at a VO2 max test when I had so much adrenaline that the HR was very high. In competition I have had down to 5 strokes below that. I think the Garmin estimate is reliable, but at the upper edge of the LT. It would be hard to run at it so I would stay a couple of strokes below, at least based on my feeling of LT. I have never measured.

In interval work the mean HR means very little as it is a matematical mean over the interval and also the length of the rest prescribes a starting HR (long rest, low HR, shorter rest, higher HR). Short rest, the mean would be higher, long rest, the mean would be lower, short interval the mean would be lower and the max would be lower, and still the effort could be the exact same. given the interval duration is at least 2min, the HR can at the end be representative to the effort. Often one can see the HR at the end of each interval is first increasing slightly and then kept constant, or it is increasing throughout the workout. That depends on a lot of factors like interval duration, rest duration, intensity, temperature and cardiac drift, etc. I run in more chilly weather so my cardiac drift is close to zero, but the first part is to get warmed up and then it is a matter if I push hard (then the max is progressing due to lactate or something) or if I go at threshold it reaches a steady level for the rest of the intervals. Now, I like very short rest for my long interval thresholds since I really am after continuous effort. For short intervalls (45-75s duration) I use 30s which is plenty to achieve a higher pace at the same AT effort, still not too long.

For the sessions, I would like to see more steady splits. The feb 27 was good all day, the march 1 PM was more variable. Maybe the 1st and 3rd was too fast and you paid for it the second and fourth? The last of March 1 AM was interestingly high. Did you increase the speed or just experience some other effect?

March 1 PM is a good example of the max HR development. The first was maybe a bit hard since you felt fresh, but since the HR is warming up it did not go higher than 153, but could have been a 156 if later in the workoyt, then the second paid the price a little (or you slowed down deliberately). Then the third is more intense, seen both in HR and time, then the last is more controlled (or tougher). A good way is to have part splits around the circuit to measure effort/time. Overall very good workouts

I would have had a plan to reduce the rest periods down, but not until the workouts can be performed steady. reducing to 2min should have minor risk of changing the load. going to 1min might change things more.

Jack Daniels Calculator wrote:

I'll now provide some details on my 1st 4x4min session this week. I wear a Garmin chest strap. For this session, I created a 'workout' in Garmin Connect, possessing the following steps:

1. Warmup until Lap Press;

2. Run 4:00, Target HR 150-154bpm*;

3. Recover 3:00;

4. Repeat Steps 2-3 4x;

5. Cool Down Until Lap Press.

*Note, my HRmax is 171bpm, ...

. I have since taken the position that my HRmax is only 168bpm. Thus, the adjusted heart rate percentages for this earlier session (which had an EPOC Training Load of 160) are as follows:

Here are the session results:

Rep 1. Average Heart Rate 149bpm (89% HRmax), Max Heart Rate 159bpm (94% HRmax);

Rep 2. Average Heart Rate 150bpm (89% HRmax), Max Heart Rate 155bpm (92% HRmax);

Rep 3. Average Heart Rate 151bpm (90% HRmax), Max Heart Rate 157bpm (93% HRmax);

Rep 4. Average Heart Rate 152bpm (90% HRmax), Max Heart Rate 160bpm (95% HRmax).

SUMMARY of above session (with bit-higher Heart Rate Targets):

Avg Heart Rate was 89.5% HRmax;

Max Heart Rate was 95.2% HRmax;

EPOC Training Load of 160.

Compare with a SUMMARIZATION averaging of the four sessions over the last two days:

Avg Heart Rate was 86.4% HRmax;

Max Heart Rate was 90.6% HRmax;

EPOC Training Load of 96.

Conclusion: Over similar volumes of work, an increase in heart rate of just a few bpm, when performing reps creeping up on the 2nd Lactate Threshold point, greatly increases the EPOC Training Load of the session!

Kicker wrote:

From what I’ve seen of the Norwegian 4 x 4 method, it seems like something used for general health and athletes doing non-endurance specific training (like soccer, as opposed to running or cycling). It’s a great way for them to improve their threshold without having to do all the other work that distance runners do. The reps are short, the rest is long, and the intensity is manageable enough to do for months on end without burning them out. It looks like a good approach for most people outside of specialized endurance sports.

If you’re training specifically for endurance sports, I think the workouts are too watered down. You may see progress, but I suspect it will be very slow compared to traditional distance training (adjusted to individual ability, of course).

I agree with you. It is kind of the basic go-to-method for every-day Joe to get real endurance. I guess people run it hard (type VO2 max) and need the 4min to cope, but as a threshold workout it is not perfect IMO. The endurance athletes in Norway do not use VO2 max workouts much as it is too hard and giving too little benefits over time. So they go to threshold and sub-threshold quality work to hit the sweetspot of large volume at quality paces with minimal recovery