Budda wrote:
Claiming price fixing is not a form of market manipulation is a contradiction in terms though.
Shareholders are the legal owners of a corporation
Legally and literally, they are very much not owners. You could perhaps argue in practice or in some situations they are "owner-like," maybe.
https://www.lawschool.cornell.edu/academics/clarke_business_law_institute/corporations-and-society/Common-Misunderstandings-About-Corporations.cfmhttps://hbr.org/2012/07/what-good-are-shareholdersDr. Racket wrote:
Budda wrote:
Claiming price fixing is not a form of market manipulation is a contradiction in terms though.
Shareholders are the legal owners of a corporation
Legally and literally, they are very much not owners. You could perhaps argue in practice or in some situations they are "owner-like," maybe.
https://www.lawschool.cornell.edu/academics/clarke_business_law_institute/corporations-and-society/Common-Misunderstandings-About-Corporations.cfmhttps://hbr.org/2012/07/what-good-are-shareholders
Oops, forget to address this
Claiming price fixing is not a form of market manipulation is a contradiction in terms though.
No one is arguing otherwise as far as I can tell. What we're saying is "price fixing may be happening in all this, in which case it would be market manipulation, but DTCC margin reqs is certainly not that."
Essentially, there is no evidence for market manipulation, and Robinhood's justification for shutting down buy orders was entirely plausible
hmmmj wrote:
seattle prattle wrote:
i bet any of the client's "shares sold without their permission" were margin calls, for which there are very specific and exact rules and circumstances in which they shall occur. I cannot fathom that a brokerage would sell someone's holdings otherwise. If there was, they should sue the pants off them.
Whatever the case, this looks terrible for Robinhood - the public outrage is infuriating. People are leaving the platform in droves - too many places to trade commission-free now. They've got to be reconsidering the upcoming IPO.
Whatever amount of users Robinhood lost will be offset by new users they gain from the publicity of this whole scandal. Yes—even bad publicity. People reading the news who never heard of Robinhood are going to see that some people on Reddit got very rich trading GameStop on this platform, regardless of the trading shutdown day. Yes, a lot of people lost money—way more people lost money and got screwed, but it doesn’t matter. It’s the same reason people join MLM, buy lottery tickets, play a slot machine: they think maybe they’ll be one of the rare winners
You know it's in essence a kind of pyramid scam when there is very little of underlying value to support the stock, given that they don't do well online and malls are dying rapidly right now and possibly into the future. You love to see the hedge funds fail, because government has allowed this kind of unregulated environment to gain advantages over others and hedge funds so often vote on the wrong side of history, e.g. betting on companies to fail, slashing jobs, selling off assets rapidly to recoup costs as soon as possible, etc., little with the long-term or jobs in mind. But here as soon as people decide that they value their money and no new money is coming in to replace it, there is literally no reason for the stock not to crash again. Closing out their positions is actually the kindest way of keeping them from losing everything they sought.
Here's a question: why not all jump in on stocks that really are undervalued and that also employ a lot of people and do so as good corporate stewards? That kind of action would really do something good. Here, we know the market is manipulated as it is, but hardly a single hedge fund trader is going to suffer all that much from losing billions here. We should put our energy into re-orienting the market so as to do more good for society, which should include something like the worker-executive boards they have in Germany and more collective ownership, plus a transactions tax and tax policies that favor jobs investment over speculative finance instruments.
xczvzxcv wrote:
You know it's in essence a kind of pyramid scam when there is very little of underlying value to support the stock, given that they don't do well online and malls are dying rapidly right now and possibly into the future. You love to see the hedge funds fail, because government has allowed this kind of unregulated environment to gain advantages over others and hedge funds so often vote on the wrong side of history, e.g. betting on companies to fail, slashing jobs, selling off assets rapidly to recoup costs as soon as possible, etc., little with the long-term or jobs in mind. But here as soon as people decide that they value their money and no new money is coming in to replace it, there is literally no reason for the stock not to crash again. Closing out their positions is actually the kindest way of keeping them from losing everything they sought.
Here's a question: why not all jump in on stocks that really are undervalued and that also employ a lot of people and do so as good corporate stewards? That kind of action would really do something good. Here, we know the market is manipulated as it is, but hardly a single hedge fund trader is going to suffer all that much from losing billions here. We should put our energy into re-orienting the market so as to do more good for society, which should include something like the worker-executive boards they have in Germany and more collective ownership, plus a transactions tax and tax policies that favor jobs investment over speculative finance instruments.
Interesting idea but funds and individual investors alike can only be expected to invest so as to procure financial gain for themselves or their share clients or fund participants.
Socially conscious mutual funds smack of what you propose, and i encourage you to dig into them. There are many and quite a few are doing relatively well, truth be told, in terms of actual returns in addition to achieving their purpose of socially responsible investing. Also, the more people turn to these funds, the more influence they will yield in the market place.
One question: why are the companies undervalued? Maybe they are because they are doing something wrong are in an unprofitable area, or any host of reasons. Should we really prolong the inefficiency or even keep them on life-support to let nature (i.e.: the markets) take their course,.
The tough love approach, you might say.
Here's another idea for you, and i actually believe this a lot:
How about people invest responsibly for the long haul, with an eye on a secure retirement even many years away, and with the hope of self-sufficiency through responsible saving and investing for many happy years of that retirement. Such a citizen will not be a burden on society and will actually contribute to the economy and help support others in need of it.
I am not saying this is in exclusion to your way of investing, I am just saying that is another issue touched upon in this speculative craze under discussion.
This is a very, very dumb take. People who bought the stock and rode the short squeeze were able to money off of their trade. The only thing that happened was that once the market got totally out of whack you couldn't open new positions in the stock because of market-maker issues. This has happened a million times in markets, when stocks go up and down and the ability to effectively make markets gets threatened.
Nothing new happened here. And the people who pulled off the short squeeze were able to make their money.
Also, this has nothing to do with running.
KieranMac wrote:
This is a very, very dumb take. People who bought the stock and rode the short squeeze were able to money off of their trade. The only thing that happened was that once the market got totally out of whack you couldn't open new positions in the stock because of market-maker issues. This has happened a million times in markets, when stocks go up and down and the ability to effectively make markets gets threatened.
Nothing new happened here. And the people who pulled off the short squeeze were able to make their money.
Also, this has nothing to do with running.
I get all that, but the part which is unresolved in my mind, and which i am led to believe that is being investigated by the SEC, is to the extent that robinhood/redit group can be claimed to have violated trading rules.
By promoting a concerted pump of the stocks, did they collude to manipulate a market in the stocks? Is that legal? Were some investors (the hedge fund shorting the stocks) harmed in that collusion? Was this manipulation even given that it was done out in the open?
I honestly don't know and would trust they get looked at and addressed accordingly. A lot would hinge on how the applicable rules are written.
And yes, i know that there is a constant refrain on messageboards to kill shorts, etc., but a concerted, loosely organized effort to this extent is unusual.
seattle prattle wrote:
KieranMac wrote:
This is a very, very dumb take. People who bought the stock and rode the short squeeze were able to money off of their trade. The only thing that happened was that once the market got totally out of whack you couldn't open new positions in the stock because of market-maker issues. This has happened a million times in markets, when stocks go up and down and the ability to effectively make markets gets threatened.
Nothing new happened here. And the people who pulled off the short squeeze were able to make their money.
Also, this has nothing to do with running.
I get all that, but the part which is unresolved in my mind, and which i am led to believe that is being investigated by the SEC, is to the extent that robinhood/redit group can be claimed to have violated trading rules.
By promoting a concerted pump of the stocks, did they collude to manipulate a market in the stocks? Is that legal? Were some investors (the hedge fund shorting the stocks) harmed in that collusion? Was this manipulation even given that it was done out in the open?
I honestly don't know and would trust they get looked at and addressed accordingly. A lot would hinge on how the applicable rules are written.
And yes, i know that there is a constant refrain on messageboards to kill shorts, etc., but a concerted, loosely organized effort to this extent is unusual.
I thought the SEC was investigating why buy orders for GME were stopped. Should be a pretty easy investigation tbh
There were a lot of calls for and expectations voiced that the SEC would investigate the trading in Gamestop and a couple of others (Blackberry, AMC, etc) before Robinhood pulled the plug on investors, and they announcement that they are doing so came out Friday.
It appears they are checking out both Robinhood for restricting access and the larger phenomenon of the group effort to short squeeze, as clearly noted below.
From The Hill:
"The Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) said Friday that it will investigate why certain online trading platforms blocked users from purchasing highly volatile stocks and if illegal market manipulation spurred the recent surge in stocks such as GameStop.
In a statement, the agency said it was “closely monitoring and evaluating the extreme price volatility of certain stocks’ trading prices over the past several days” and would “review actions taken by regulated entities that may disadvantage investors or otherwise unduly inhibit their ability to trade certain securities.”"
My question now is- roaring kitty or whatever his name is, is saying HODL because the squeeze hasnt even started. He says mechanics mean the companies simply cant buy stock that fast and roll out their shorts
Melvin is saying they have got rid of all their short positions.
So are Melvin lieing about their financial position? Flat out illegal.
Misleading the market? Flat out illegal.
Will these people go to prison for lying to stockholders and investors?
How many of you have an order in to buy silver tomorrow?
I am buying a few grand of Gamestop.
Let's keep driving the price up and put these hedge fund managers out of business
woot woot
Fiat Truther wrote:
How many of you have an order in to buy silver tomorrow?
The reddit bros are saying the silver push is a con by the hedge funds to screw over the reddit bros.