Rojo - Do you support transgender athletes competing as long as they receive hormonal treatment? Or are you fully against?

Studies indicate the opposite. No hormonal therapy can change biology. I know people in desperation are pretending that biological differences between men and women are no different than differences in natural ability within a specific gender, but the advantage is categorical.

Lots of people with lots of conditions suffer. People with clinical depression. Eating disorders. Other forms of dysphoria. We all want to be compassionate, but on the issue, to be blunt, so what? It does not mean we need to favor one group and bend reality into a pretzel at the expense of others based on notions of comparative suffering. Life is suffering. Again, why does this one microscopic subset of the population take priority over everything else? They don't. Nor is being allowed to compete against another gender based on how a person allegedly identifies helping anyone, least of all the trans athlete.

damn bro. miss me with the all-lives-matter rhetoric. and for what it's worth, I am very familiar with the concept that life is suffering– I myself have been hospitalized for an eating disorder and have been medicated for clinical depression since I was 16. I've struggled to break free from an abusive relationship and had people close to me attempt suicide. However, I'm also acutely aware that others suffer in ways that I could never know or understand, and experience difficulties that I'll never have to face.

Say you have a herd of horses, and they're all hungry, but one of them is clearly starving to death. Would you withhold food from the starving horse because feeding it first, when it's clearly in the most need, wouldn't be fair to the others? As one of the hungry-but-not-starving horses in this situation, I'd personally be willing to give up a bit of my comfort to ensure that my struggling friend gets the same chance at life as me. I know not everyone feels that way, but I certainly do.

In the end, it's not a question of "favoring" one group, but rather ensuring that they have the same basic opportunities the rest of us take for granted. How would you feel if you had the ability to compete COMPLETELY taken away from you, just by virtue of who you are? If you're a serious runner, probably hollow, depressed, hopeless. Probably worse than if a trans woman happened to catch you in the final stretch of a big race. Personally, I'm willing to chance the latter outcome if it means giving a hard-working woman a precious opportunity to run.

And I'm not denying categorical differences in biology. But I do believe that especially with prolonged hormone treatment, they're not as extreme as some folks assume. And I can't help but wonder... how many folks in this thread are cis men, or others who will never be in a position where you might have to race a trans woman? How many of you have no real stake in this argument besides a stubborn commitment to a nebulous sense of fairness or sportsmanship? I'd encourage you to examine how much of that stems from a genuine desire to uplift and strengthen the sport of women's running, and how much of it might actually be rooted in discomfort, fear, or resentment of trans people.

One final point– you don't get to decide what will or won't help "anyone, least of all trans athletes." (Unless you are a trans athlete yourself, of course.) Have you read an article, watched a video, or heard any kind of testimony from a trans athlete expressing what it means to them to be recognized as competitors, as themselves? Even if it makes you uncomfortable, I would encourage you to seek these stories out. If what I wrote here won't nudge you to stretch your thinking

and your compassion, perhaps they might.

quick clarification - "having the ability to compete completely taken away from you" includes situations in which a trans person might have the option to compete, but in the category of the gender they were assigned at birth. I don't consider that to be much of a choice. For many trans women athletes I imagine it would be humiliating, invalidating, and incredibly difficult to achieve any kind of success in that situation, especially if they've been on HRT for awhile.

ellen degenerate wrote:

And here's something that's missing from most of the discussion of this issue on these boards– trans women, and especially trans women of color, are socially ostracized, discriminated against, and invalidated at every turn. They suffer disproportionately from mental health issues, face serious threats of transmisogynistic violence, and attempt/commit suicide at far higher rates than cis women. For them, acceptance, respect, and inclusion is a matter of life and death.

This is true but is entirely irrelevant to the discussion at hand. I vehemently support the rights of transgender people to be treated with dignity. I still don't think transgender women/girls should participate in womens/girls sports.

astro wrote:

Studies indicate the opposite. No hormonal therapy can change biology. I know people in desperation are pretending that biological differences between men and women are no different than differences in natural ability within a specific gender, but the advantage is categorical.

Lots of people with lots of conditions suffer. People with clinical depression. Eating disorders. Other forms of dysphoria. We all want to be compassionate, but on the issue, to be blunt, so what? It does not mean we need to favor one group and bend reality into a pretzel at the expense of others based on notions of comparative suffering. Life is suffering. Again, why does this one microscopic subset of the population take priority over everything else? They don't. Nor is being allowed to compete against another gender based on how a person allegedly identifies helping anyone, least of all the trans athlete.

Yea I've mentioned this. The biomechanics are different, the hip structure is different. The advantages are not available to ANY other women except trans.

Alan

I don't see the real problem. As with the Semenya case, they took evidence (sure it was limited in volume) and made adjustments.

You need to pitch those adjustments depending on realistically what the differences are in each sport. Endurance racing vs weight lifting need to have very different adjustments.

Not really rocket science, and the volume of cases in elite sports will be extremely tiny.

Main thing is to give runners in this case, access to sports and competition and do it in a dignified way, and not force people to run in the wrong gender/sex category, use the wrong washrooms etc.

what is biological sex wrote:

ellen degenerate wrote:

And here's something that's missing from most of the discussion of this issue on these boards– trans women, and especially trans women of color, are socially ostracized, discriminated against, and invalidated at every turn. They suffer disproportionately from mental health issues, face serious threats of transmisogynistic violence, and attempt/commit suicide at far higher rates than cis women. For them, acceptance, respect, and inclusion is a matter of life and death.

This is true but is entirely irrelevant to the discussion at hand. I vehemently support the rights of transgender people to be treated with dignity. I still don't think transgender women/girls should participate in womens/girls sports.

This about sums up how I feel about this.

And what I find completely hypocritical, is this idea that we seek equality for all while wanting to allow distinct advantages for some. Makes no sense to me. Allowing transgendered women (born male) to compete against women without hormonal checks/limits absolutely gives the competing athlete an unfair advantage in the sport/event that athlete is competing.

Well...... wrote:

I don't see the real problem. As with the Semenya case, they took evidence (sure it was limited in volume) and made adjustments.

You need to pitch those adjustments depending on realistically what the differences are in each sport. Endurance racing vs weight lifting need to have very different adjustments.

Not really rocket science, and the volume of cases in elite sports will be extremely tiny.

Main thing is to give runners in this case, access to sports and competition and do it in a dignified way, and not force people to run in the wrong gender/sex category, use the wrong washrooms etc.

Not really. The differences in biomechanics help make a man stronger and faster than women. How the hip is designed plays a factor in how power is transferred to propulsion.

Same training, same bodtfat, even same testosterone men will run faster and lift more simply because physics.

Alan

Why treat them with dignity? Sara Hall gets blasted. Rupp gets blasted. Trump gets blasted. Pretty much everyone is treated without dignity here so transgender should be treated no better than others.

"Microscopic subset".

That says it all.

Well...... wrote:

I don't see the real problem. As with the Semenya case, they took evidence (sure it was limited in volume) and made adjustments.

You need to pitch those adjustments depending on realistically what the differences are in each sport. Endurance racing vs weight lifting need to have very different adjustments.

Not really rocket science, and the volume of cases in elite sports will be extremely tiny.

Main thing is to give runners in this case, access to sports and competition and do it in a dignified way, and not force people to run in the wrong gender/sex category, use the wrong washrooms etc.

Does fairness only matter in elite sports? I don't coach elite athletes. I coach high school athletes who deserve to compete on a level playing field. It is an innate human quality to recognize and dislike unfairness. If you don't want to be a pariah, start by not demanding to be allowed to cheat. Cue cries of transphobia, etc. If you knowingly enter a competition with a significant advantage unavailable to those the class was intended for, you are a cheater, plain and simple. Respect is earned, not demanded. Want my respect? Compete in the class where your physiology is most closely aligned to that of the competition and do your best. I'll be the first to shake your hand and tell you good race.

SDSU Aztec wrote:

"Microscopic subset".

That says it all.

Indeed. Why are their needs superior to those of the many?

Did you even read my post ? I said there have to be adjustments to each sport to match the advantage, so that it's negated.

Who said anything about fairness ? It's not about that, sport isn't fair, far from it.

As for elite sports, they set the standard as they have the resources to investigate and set a policy, the rest trickles down. Your local club isn't going to do some research into the advantages (or not) for a sport that transgender folk have.

I was a 51s, 2:02, 5:04, 17:05 runner in HS and as a child and through HS, I had gender disphoria issues and people wouldn't be shy to tell me how feminine I appeared to them. A part of me did feel like a girl. That being said, I never once thought it would be fair to take hormones and surgery and compete as a woman so in that aspect I feel zero common ground with those who do.

Anyone who thinks the only difference between a man a woman is a few hormones does not understand human biology.

Anyone who thinks that lowering a male’s testosterone makes it a level playing field for him to compete against women does not understand human biology.

It’s like putting low grade fuel into a race car and having it race Honda Civic.

Also if trans people are so proud to be trans why aren’t trans activists fighting for trans acceptance. Trans distinction on documents. Trans competition category. Trans restrooms, etc.

That would be truly seeking trans rights, rather than pushing women aside.

Disgusted wrote:

SDSU Aztec wrote:

"Microscopic subset".

That says it all.

Indeed. Why are their needs superior to those of the many?

These type of threads keep popping up very week or so with the same rants. There two facts:

1) It's not an open issue. Richards won in court about 45 years ago and unless there is s significant negative influence on women's sports from the microscopic subset, the issue will never be challenged in court. The Connecticut lawsuit is a stunt and at most, that state, which has a population of 3.5M, will prevent transgender athletes from competing against HS girls. California, which has the same rules as Connecticut currently has and has a population of 39M, will continue to allow transgender athletes to compete. The good news is that as far as I know, there currently isn't even a single transgender athlete competing.

2) At anyone time in the future, there will never be more than a handful of transgender athletes competing in HS. In distance running, it's likely there will never be a competitive transgender athlete in HS. It would require an equally competitive boy and as a girl she would be ineligible for a scholarship. Because of backlash from other students few will want to transgender during HS. Most teenage boys will not be respectful of a transgender female and will make their lives miserable.

Transgender females are always going to be allowed to compete, it will rarely happen, probably never occur at the upper level of any sport and certainly not in distance running.

The belief that Biden's EO will have any affect on women's sports is nonsense.

It will change everything. I am woman, hear me roar. No other requirements to compete in female high school or college athletics. You seem to be okay with it at the same time that you keep arguing against it.