(Road Racing and) Time Trialing and Training Thread - Week Ending 1/10/21

There's a youtube video of Ben Rosario having a cple of his NAZ runners doing the workout as well.

runrincerepeat wrote:

GNR1 wrote:

LancRunner, I like it? might have to try this one on for size myself.

What’s the purpose of this workout ? Mixing hard R type work with I work in that manner.

GNR - It's a fun workout. I liked the mix of hard and tempo, made the workout move fast and not get boring (12-20x400 can get... monotonous).

rrr - Good question! I see a couple of things, but if stat sees this, I'd love his commentary on it, b/c I stole the workout from him. I'll give you the long winded justification for me, and then stat can tell me i'm wrong and give you the real reasons.

I feel as though I've plateaued a bit in the 5k recently, and I tend to see myself fall off in the last mile. I don't think it's a full on fatigue issue, I've been doing 60-75 miles a week for almost a year now, I am attributing it to not running well on tired legs. When I hit that wall, I can't keep the turnover. So a workout like this can hopefully give me that feeling of running fast while fatigued. I'm also working on further speeding up my turnover, so the paces, 3k, mile, sub-mile, will hopefully help me continue in that development.

Also, I really like to run fast, and as OR knows, running is way more fun when you're having fun doing it. So that's a reason as well. Back in the day (high school) I was a 800/mile guy, and this workout brings that back a little bit. I'm not ready to let go of HS me quite yet.

So, I don't know if those are great reasons. But it's what I was going for. I haven't done a real workout with intervals shorter than 400 and faster than mile pace in YEARS, so that was fun to reintroduce that.

Finally, I've looked back on my training the past year, and my weeks have looked like this...

M - Super Easy 6-8 miles

T - Workout - Tends to be longer intervals (1k and up) and at 5k-ish pace

W - Easy ML run - 10-12 miles

T - Easy - 6-8

F - Easy 10ish

Sa - Super Easy 10ish

Su - 14-16 long run - Progression from 7:00 down to 6:00ish

Total - around 70.

First half of this year, I'm thinking of deprioritizing the Progression long run, but keeping the long run, so making it all at easy pace. Then, reintroducing more tempo work on a day... so the week would look like this...

M - Super Easy 6-8 miles

T - Workout - speed day - 3k-5k pace and faster

W - Easy ML run - 10-12 miles

T - Tempo Workout - 3-6 miles at tempo with WU and CD

F - Easy 10ish

Sa - Super Easy 10ish

Su - 14-16 long run Easy

I'm thinking this may help further development in the 5k so I can hit my goal of going sub-16 in the spring. I can then pivot to training for something like a half marathon in the fall, maybe.

So there you go. Would love to hear some feedback on these lines of thinking, just trying to change things up slightly, feel some new stimulus, and progress a bit more.

spending a considerable amount of time finishing up the master bath renovation so not allocating the extra time to running - this will change this week as we're nearing the finish line...if anyone is curious, master bath > kitchen renovation.

Anyways

45 miles - two efforts -

(1) crappy mid-week 6 mile effort with some tempo that felt like poo

(2) 6 mile weekend cap evening run - on extremely tired legs (hauling vanity counter tops, cabinets, shower doors, etc up three flights of stairs) - .5 mile warm up, 4.55 miles @ 5:50ish, 3 min break, 1 mile @ 5:40 with almost 100 feet of elevation gain - it was hard work but felt good.

plan is to ramp this week + next, followed by a week of "altitude" training in Keystone CO (skiing) and then a solid 8 week push for an early April HM effort.

M, 23, 5'8/165

Super busy week life and work-wise.

M - 5.07 (8:52) + Weights - Super slow recovery jog effort.

T - 5.05 (7:56) Easy + Weights

W - 7.02 (7:30) - Incl. 20 x 30/30 intervals. "On" was 5:20-5:30, trying to feel smooth at 5k effort and continue reintroducing quality efforts.

TH - 6.5 (9:14) - Suuuuuper hilly trails. Took it easy and did an hour. 1000ish feet of elevation gain.

F - 10.02 (7:00) - 3mi up + 5 steady + 2mi down. MP effort on steady - 6:39/6:46/6:39/6:42/6:33. Rolling terrain and off-road. Not a super high quality effort but I respond well to steady running. Could've run like that forever but was on a big time crunch.

S - Off/Weights

S - 6.56 @ 7:31 Easy

Week - 40.24mi/5h17m

Worked 30ish hours this weekend. If I had my druthers, I would've gotten in an easy 30-40mins of shakeout running on Saturday before lifting, but by the time I got home it was extremely late and dark, so I hit the weights in the garage and went to bed. With less of a time crunch, would've gone 12-13 on Friday and extended the steady out to 8 miles. Overall, not a bad week, got in 1.5 quality workouts and hit the weights 3x. Will look for a similar week this week but hopefully run 7 days.

M35, 6'2, 174 lbs

Next: Stay healthy & build back up

Mon - 45 minutes elliptical

Tues - 9.44 mi @ 6:20/mi (1 hour steady state)

Wed - 5.70 mi @ 8:07/mi

Thurs - 10.00 mi @ 7:26/mi (Midweek LR)

Fri - 2 mi WU, 6.00 mi @ 5:40/mi (Ritz Fartlek), 2 mi CD

Sat - 6.00 mi @ 8:10/mi

Sun - 14.00 mi @ 7:06/mi

This was the most mileage I have done in a week since my injury, so that's a big win.

My legs definitely felt last Saturday's 10-mile hard effort throughout this week, but came around near the end of the week to where I felt pretty strong yesterday on my long run. It was also my longest continuous run since my injury (I did 14 total last Saturday, but that was with a 2 mile WU & CD).

I did the Ritz Fartlek aka Double Ladder (1-2-3-2-1-2-3-2-1) at the same location as I did that workout three weeks earlier so I could get a barometer of progress. My coach also assigned me paces between 5:00-5:30/mi on this one, compared to 5:30-5:45/mi on the last one. I kept them all between 5:00-5:15/mi this go-round.

I ended up hiring a strength coach to write a plan for me going forward. I feel as if I am aimless in the gym sometimes. I mean, I do workouts and all, but it's just things that I've picked up along the way and nothing running-centric. I did my first workout on Saturday and had my second this morning. First time doing squats and trap bar deadlifts in a while.

LancRunner wrote:

M - Super Easy 6-8 miles

T - Workout - speed day - 3k-5k pace and faster

W - Easy ML run - 10-12 miles

T - Tempo Workout - 3-6 miles at tempo with WU and CD

F - Easy 10ish

Sa - Super Easy 10ish

Su - 14-16 long run Easy

I notice this plan has four easyish days in a row (F, S, Su, M). What if you pushed the tempo back to Fri?

M - easy

T - speed

W - recovery

R - easy

F - tempo

Sa - recovery

Su - long

Could possibly throw in some strides on Thursday?

Hello everybody, looks like another good week for all.

Nothing really different here. Got rid of the ice only to have it back after the snow Saturday night into Sunday.

Monday- 10.71 miles 1'05"42 (6:08 avg), then 3.41 miles 23:35 (6:54 avg) I hate when I have to take a restroom break....

Tuesday- 14.38 miles 1'30"06 (6:16 avg)

Wednesday- 14.01 miles 1'23"53 (5:59 avg) and .30 miles 2:14 (7:32 avg) This had a workout during the run, 2x90 seconds hard, 4x1 min hard, 4x45 seconds hard, 4x30 seconds hard, 4x15 seconds hard with the recovery half of the hard efforts, then I added on 6x1 min hard.

Thursday- 6.28 miles 38:57 (6:12 avg) Stomach was pretty mad.... Finished the rest, 8.01 miles 51:57 (6:28 avg)

Friday- 14.11 miles 1'29"27 (6:20 avg)

Saturday- 12.30 miles with a friend 1'26"14 (7:00 avg) then added on 2.10 miles 14:09 (6:45 avg)

Sunday- 14.40 miles 1'38"42 (6:51 avg) cold, snowy and icey so it was about getting it completed and not falling.

99.9 miles on the week.

Have a great one all.

Thoughts on the posts so far...

@hhw - Excited to see how you progress with a coach!

@Stone - Love how you're mixing up the paces. Nice work!

@runrincerepeat - Looks like things are coming along. Nice job shedding some lbs!

@fatsos - Thank you for the kind words!

@THICCMIKE - Thank you for the kind words!

@jmar227 - Strong week, especially with Wednesday's effort!

@Seppo - You are going to blow the doors off whatever you having coming up!

imagebearer wrote:

I notice this plan has four easyish days in a row (F, S, Su, M). What if you pushed the tempo back to Fri?

M - easy

T - speed

W - recovery

R - easy

F - tempo

Sa - recovery

Su - long

Could possibly throw in some strides on Thursday?

Agreed. I think the schedule of days is up to change depending on how I feel or time constraints, life, and work.

I like the friday tempo... but it's usually hard for me to accomplish due to schedule, but I think that would be the ideal.

Just kind of thinking out loud here, but...

I remember going through a similar stretch in college when I felt like I wasn't running up to my fitness in the 5k, and specifically fading rather than charging over the last mile. This may or may not apply to you, but the analysis I eventually arrived at was:

1) I was not doing enough to build basic aerobic endurance

2) I was doing too much high-intensity work for my level of fitness, so that I was going into races with my batteries already depleted

3) I was pacing too aggressively, so that I was red-lining too early in the race and psychologically in the mode of hanging on rather than preparing to attack

After college, when I had more control over my own training, I shifted toward doing somewhat higher mileage more consistently throughout the year, doing demanding high-intensity workouts less frequently, and adopting a more patient approach to pacing, and saw significant improvement. (Unfortunately, I was still doing some other not-so-smart things with my training, which held me back in other ways, but that's another story.)

About the weekly schedules you laid out: imagebearer makes a good observation. Building on that a bit, there are arguments for distributing your training stress relatively evenly over the week, but there can also be arguments for setting up an unbalanced week, where one end of the week is more loaded and the other is relatively light. (Essentially, the potential benefit of the unbalanced week is greater modulation.) And of course there can be times when going more balanced or unbalanced makes sense.

Just as a for example:

M - Super easy recovery day

T - Easy

W - Tempo/threshold workout

T - Easy

F - Light speed workout - short repeats/short hill repeats (fast more than hard)

Sa - Mid-long run building to a steady/strong effort (could do this in "waves" rather than a straight progression that you try to hold through to the end)

Su - Long run easy

Whether this kind of setup would make sense or not depends on the situation, but it may be worth thinking about.

imagebearer wrote:

LancRunner wrote:

M - Super Easy 6-8 miles

T - Workout - speed day - 3k-5k pace and faster

W - Easy ML run - 10-12 miles

T - Tempo Workout - 3-6 miles at tempo with WU and CD

F - Easy 10ish

Sa - Super Easy 10ish

Su - 14-16 long run Easy

I notice this plan has four easyish days in a row (F, S, Su, M). What if you pushed the tempo back to Fri?

M - easy

T - speed

W - recovery

R - easy

F - tempo

Sa - recovery

Su - long

Could possibly throw in some strides on Thursday?

This has pretty much been my schedule since I started racing competitively again.

Substitute the easy run on Thursday for a midweek long run and that's what I'm doing!

M43, 5'10

Groin seems to be improving but I have this “feeling” that something is off. So to control things, I’m staying on the treadmill to control the incline and I can also bail at a moment's notice without a long walk home. That very thing happened on Saturday’s run where I started to feel “something” starting up in my glute so I aborted and took a rest day on Sunday.

With a day of rest behind me, this morning I ran a very easy 50 minute treadmill run at an average 131 bpm (68% MaxHR for me) and it felt fine.

Ultimately, my training goal is to get up to daily steady singles at a good/strong effort (see Zmswift) for 80-90 minutes per day in singles. For now, I might keep at the slower, steady efforts until I’m in that 80-90 minute range comfortably day over day with no tweaks, then gradually pick up the effort until i hit that “comfortably fast” feeling.

Progression plan:

1. Dead EZ (<70% MaxHR) working up to 80-90 minute range

2. LIGHT OR Flyers - Start dead EZ and end at my comfortably fast cruising pace (MP’ish effort by feel) in 80-90 minute range.

3. Increase time in steady state comfortably fast. Limit to 80-90 minutes.

4. Add small increments of time duration. If pace is still increasing, going to keep the time duration steady.

My Week:

* - indicates treadmill

*Mon - 82 Minutes @ 7:20

*Tues - 86 Minutes with comfortably fast 200m close (9.6 mph) @ 7:11

Wed #1 - 26 Minutes (Windy) @ 6:32

*Wed #2 - 60 Minutes @ 7:41

*Thurs - 87 Minutes @ 7:36

*Fri - 83 Minutes @ 7:50

*Sat - 65 Minutes @ 7:40 (aborted - glute)

Sun - Rest

Weekly Totals

Miles: 65.7 Miles

Duration: 8:10

Stryd Running Stress Score: 497

LancRunner wrote:

M - Super Easy 6-8 miles

T - Workout - speed day - 3k-5k pace and faster

W - Easy ML run - 10-12 miles

T - Tempo Workout - 3-6 miles at tempo with WU and CD

F - Easy 10ish

Sa - Super Easy 10ish

Su - 14-16 long run Easy

Lanc, I'm liking it a lot. Touches all the paces every week. It's very similar to what I was doing a few years back, except my plan was on a 9-day grid. I was 57-59, and needed extra recovery days:

Easy

VO2max repeats (3K-5K race pace)

Easy

Medium Long Run (12-16 miles)

Easy

LT repeats or Threshold run (15K race pace)

Easy

Long Run (18-22 miles easy)

Off

The VO2 max workout was 800m to 1-mile repeats with up to equal-time jog recovery. Repeats would total 3 or 4 miles (plus warm-up, warm-down, jogs between).

The LT workouts were 1.5- or 2-mile repeats totaling 6 miles, with 2-minute static recoveries; or a 4- or 5-mile Threshold-pace run (15K pace equaled 1-hour race pace at the time). Plus warm-up, warm-down.

Long runs were easy -- MP plus maybe 45 seconds per mile. Medium-long runs were typically progressions, easy to MP.

On some easy days, and as part of workout warmups, I would run strides, starting easy, accelerating to 1-mile race pace by 50m, and holding for 50m. Focusing on form -- relaxed, with knee-lift, back-kick, turnover.

I had been running and racing for 45+ years at that point, but with that schedule I set lifetime age-graded PRs from 1-mile track to the marathon.

running_squirrel - Thank You for the suggestions with the foot last week. I took three days off and have incorporated some of your list.

Male, 27, 6’4”, 147lbs

PRs: 4:54 Mi to 2:47:14 M all 2018

Mn - 10.5 @ 8:00s

Tu - 5 @ 7:45s

Wd-Fri - Off

Sa - 8 @ 7:10s

Su - 8 @ 7:25s

Total - 31

Foot has been hurting since 12/29/2020 when I did a long hilly run. Took three days off, felt pretty good by day 2. Ran again on saturday and it was like I didnt take any time off. Going to run through and see what happens, will try to keep runs to around an hour. Guessing Extensor Tendonitis

Turnover ..... probably has more psychological than physiological benefits

I think you can address the purpose here from 2 perspectives: why Lanc ran the workout and what the workout helps develop.

As far as why Lanc ran the workout, I think he provided a pretty good outline of that above. I also pretty much agree with everything he said. If you look at his recent performances the delta between his mile and 5k times compared to his 5k and HM times really stands out as having the potential for improvement.

The purpose/design of this workout is one I really like. When I incorporate this workout I'm looking for an effort that will help me dial in mile pace and mile specific endurance. There's certainly a mental benefit to turning over at mile pace and getting comfortable with that, but I think there is a physiological benefit as well. The mile is a tough mix of speed and strength where mile pace for a 300 or 400 often isn't that hard in and of itself, and an aerobically strong individual like Lanc is going to recover between short reps like that relatively quickly. However, because of that ability to recover, a workout solely consisting of short reps often doesn't adequately prepare someone for the latter half of the race. That's where I like the tempo reps between sets to add a bit more fatigue to the legs and aerobic system and simulate the tired legs of the second half of the race. I think that's where someone like Lanc especially really starts to benefit as they maintain mile pace on fatigued legs.

As a grain of salt, it's just one workout in a much bigger picture. I'm not saying every mile workout has to feature mixed paces like this or that just running 400s at mile pace has no real benefit. This is just how I usually see this workout fitting into a bigger equation.

Stat, it's interesting you say that about 400s at mile pace. I find them incredibly difficult to do and could never get through a classic predictor session without blowing up. For my next training cycle I'm thinking of only really doing one hard 400 workout 10 days out from my target 1,500, as these workouts also seem to peak me quickly.

Lanc, I like the plan and the workout. It touches on all but one energy system: top end. I would recommend throwing in hill sprints and 800m-paced strides (with full rec) at some point during the week. I think these are important even for 5k.

Seppo Kaitenenn wrote:

Stat, it's interesting you say that about 400s at mile pace. I find them incredibly difficult to do and could never get through a classic predictor session without blowing up. For my next training cycle I'm thinking of only really doing one hard 400 workout 10 days out from my target 1,500, as these workouts also seem to peak me quickly.

Lanc, I like the plan and the workout. It touches on all but one energy system: top end. I would recommend throwing in hill sprints and 800m-paced strides (with full rec) at some point during the week. I think these are important even for 5k.

I assume you're referring to something like 8x400 at mile with 90 seconds recovery or something like? I definitely agree mile pace gets a bit tougher with a workout like that. I'll go to something like that when I want the limiting factor in my workout to be leg speed, which with greater than 1:1 rest I think is the case. I go to the workout Scott ran or something similar when I'm looking for strength/endurance to also be a limiting factor.

I was thinking about starting my first thread on LetsRun but I will check with alls yalls first.

Does anybody have an update on NBC Sports Gold Track and Field Pass? they have no updated schedule on their website and I can't even find the button to sign up. I will consider sending them an email, although I did last year with no response.

- RunnerSam