Viruses mutate.
No kidding.
How can a vaccine work for a virus that has mutated?
It can't.
Simple.
Viruses mutate.
No kidding.
How can a vaccine work for a virus that has mutated?
It can't.
Simple.
perhaps I should add on. The mutation only affects the vaccine's ability to establish functional ability if the immune response generated by the vaccine cannot recognize the spike protein on the mutant strain. A significant amount of mutation can occur without preventing that from happening.
Are you now saying that no vaccines work? Serious question, just trying to figure out how far back into the science we need to go.
Again all viruses mutate. Vaccines are created, the virus mutates, and the vaccine continues to work. I can give simple examples.
The Unkle wrote:
https://www.bitchute.com/video/dcbxR7hgzy1y/
Good video. Thanks for posting it.
Here's the link to his website.
The Unkle wrote:
Viruses mutate.
No kidding.
How can a vaccine work for a virus that has mutated?
It can't.
Simple.
Small parts of the virus have mutated. Small parts of the virus that the vaccine encodes have mutated. Your immune system can still recognize the virus despite small changes.
It's complicated immunology -- not really a good place for your "gotcha" style of arguing (way over your head).
trashcan wrote:
perhaps I should add on. The mutation only affects the vaccine's ability to establish functional ability if the immune response generated by the vaccine cannot recognize the spike protein on the mutant strain. A significant amount of mutation can occur without preventing that from happening.
Try again in English.
trashcan wrote:
Are you now saying that no vaccines work? Serious question, just trying to figure out how far back into the science we need to go.
Where did I say that? Because I note that the virus has mutated so ask how can the old vaccine work against it this means that I do not think any vaccines work? Want to walk me thru your "thought" process on that one?
Again all viruses mutate. Vaccines are created, the virus mutates, and the vaccine continues to work. I can give simple examples.
Please do.
The flu for example. New vaccines every year. Why?
Did you know that no vaccine has ever been developed for any other coronavirus? The common cold, for example.
Harambe wrote:
[quote]The Unkle wrote:
Viruses mutate.
No kidding.
How can a vaccine work for a virus that has mutated?
It can't.
Simple.
Small parts of the virus have mutated. Small parts of the virus that the vaccine encodes have mutated. Your immune system can still recognize the virus despite small changes.
Can you cite your source for this? Assuming it is not one of your bodily orifices.
Where do we find "small parts" of the viruses mutated?
Of course my immune system recognizes the virus. What does that have to do with the vaccine working on a mutated virus?
The Unkle wrote:
trashcan wrote:
perhaps I should add on. The mutation only affects the vaccine's ability to establish functional ability if the immune response generated by the vaccine cannot recognize the spike protein on the mutant strain. A significant amount of mutation can occur without preventing that from happening.
Try again in English.
You are admitting that you don't understand the biology well enough to be throwing out hypotheses like "the vaccine won't work on the mutated strain" when you say things like this.
The Unkle wrote:
Can you cite your source for this? Assuming it is not one of your bodily orifices.
Where do we find "small parts" of the viruses mutated?
Of course my immune system recognizes the virus. What does that have to do with the vaccine working on a mutated virus?
Yeah: the B.1.1.7 Mutation has 17 mutations
https://virological.org/t/preliminary-genomic-characterisation-of-an-emergent-sars-cov-2-lineage-in-the-uk-defined-by-a-novel-set-of-spike-mutations/563That is a tiny amount of the thousands of amino acids that make up the virus (assuming they are all protein coding mutations).
In general, the virus should "look" mostly the same to an immune system trained to recognize it.
The vaccine trains your immune system to recognize part of the virus. The changes to the part of the virus the vaccine encodes are minimal enough that they almost certainly won't effect vaccine effectiveness.
However, a single amino acid substitution can have a LARGE effect on how a biomolecule behaves. Thus we get: mutation that (seems to, still being studied!) affect transmissiblity but shouldn't affect vaccine effectiveness.
And I guess my last attempt to explain involves antibody affinity.
Of course you could skip this and look up antibody affinity or B cell affinity
as an example the British Society for Immunology page enitled "Generation of B-cell/antibody diversity"
if you want me to explain, here it is:
I think you have a concept where an immune response is generated to a virus, it is 100% responsive to that virus and 0% responsive to everything else.
That is not how it works.
First an immune response is generated that is a good fit for the virus, but by no means is the immune response the "perfect" fit (I mean it could, but odds are vanishingly low). The antibodies generated have affinity for an antigen. It binds more strongly to some antigens and less strongly to others.
It is not all or nothing
Among other issues this can cause a post-viral auto-immune response--your body has antigens that the antibodies (stimulated by the infection) have a fairly strong affinity for.
Anyway, as an example, Covid could mutate without the spike protein changing at all--no effect on vaccine effectiveness.
It could mutate the spike protein in a way that does not affect the antibody affinity--no affect on vaccine effectiveness.
It could mutate the spike protein in a way that INCREASES the antibody affinity--increased vaccine effectiveness (less likely but possible--again the fit with the initial virus almost certainly was imperfect)
It could mutate the spike protein in a way that DECREASES the antibody affinity-->decreased vaccine effectiveness, but almost certainly not 0 effectiveness. We would expect a mutated spike protein to still have enough in common with the original that an antibody with very strong affinity for the original spike protein would still have a reasonably strong affinity for the mutated Covid spike protein.
I am a long ways from an immunologist. I welcome corrections by those more knowledgeable than me, ideally with academic sources (not videos)
The Unkle wrote:
Harambe wrote:
[quote]The Unkle wrote:
Viruses mutate.
No kidding.
How can a vaccine work for a virus that has mutated?
It can't.
Simple.
Small parts of the virus have mutated. Small parts of the virus that the vaccine encodes have mutated. Your immune system can still recognize the virus despite small changes.
Can you cite your source for this? Assuming it is not one of your bodily orifices.
Where do we find "small parts" of the viruses mutated?
Of course my immune system recognizes the virus. What does that have to do with the vaccine working on a mutated virus?
The vaccine works by stimulating an effective immune response you would get by having the virus. If you assume having the immune response to the standard virus will protect against the mutant strain, you should do the same for the vaccine.
There is no vaccine for the common cold for 2 reasons:
1) it is a whole bunch of different viruses, each accounting for a small portion of the damage done by the common cold
2) the common cold does relatively little damage relative to Covid.
If lots of people wanted to spend lots of money to get vaccinated for the all of the viruses--and presumably get lots of shots, such a cure could be created. I don't think anyone is willing to make that investment in money, time, or sore arms, either privately, or as a public health good, nor do I think they should.
trashcan wrote:
Anyway, as an example, Covid could mutate without the spike protein changing at all--no effect on vaccine effectiveness.
It could mutate the spike protein in a way that does not affect the antibody affinity--no affect on vaccine effectiveness.
It could mutate the spike protein in a way that INCREASES the antibody affinity--increased vaccine effectiveness (less likely but possible--again the fit with the initial virus almost certainly was imperfect)
It could mutate the spike protein in a way that DECREASES the antibody affinity-->decreased vaccine effectiveness, but almost certainly not 0 effectiveness. We would expect a mutated spike protein to still have enough in common with the original that an antibody with very strong affinity for the original spike protein would still have a reasonably strong affinity for the mutated Covid spike protein.
I am a long ways from an immunologist. I welcome corrections by those more knowledgeable than me, ideally with academic sources (not videos)
Yeah, also that antigens (like the spike protein) are processed into small fragments and memory is developed to various small pieces of the antigen. Therefore, a mutation may not affect the recognition of many spike-derived antigens at all.
Not an immunologist but that's my understanding.
Yes, my understanding as well about the small portions, not exactly certain about size, and would think that a mutation elsewhere could possibly change the overall morphology such that the (unmutated) antigen site is no longer properly accessible. Again--sort of outside edges of probability.
unkle
If this doesn't make sense to you, please research (using peer-reviewed sources) how exposure to a virus would provide immunity than functions against a mutated virus, but a vaccine would not. Then explain it with reference (not a video)
I just don't see how anybody thought the vaccine was going to change anything. What, you thought they'd be like, 'oh okay, good, you took our experimental vaccine, now things can go back to normal'? lol that was never the intention. Some of yall need to SMARTEN up
Harambe wrote:
You are admitting that you don't understand the biology well enough to be throwing out hypotheses like "the vaccine won't work on the mutated strain" when you say things like this.
Actually he's right and you're the one who is wrong, and who therefore doesn't understand basic biology.
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ALL vaccines are toxic and work to destroy the immune system of the body.
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If that's what you mean by work then yeah they work to give people major health problems.
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But they don't work to help people be healthy, because destroying people's immunities makes people worse off not better.
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All that vaccines "work" for is the vaccination companies making big profits while they are destroying people's health, who they don't care about in the least.
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All they care about is their profits $$$.
dunes runner wrote:
Actually he's right and you're the one who is wrong, and who therefore doesn't understand basic biology.
-
ALL vaccines are toxic and work to destroy the immune system of the body.
-
If that's what you mean by work then yeah they work to give people major health problems.
-
But they don't work to help people be healthy, because destroying people's immunities makes people worse off not better.
-
All that vaccines "work" for is the vaccination companies making big profits while they are destroying people's health, who they don't care about in the least.
-
All they care about is their profits $$$.
At least we didn't get a youtube video this time.
dunes runner wrote:
But they don't work to help people be healthy, because destroying people's immunities makes people worse off not better.
In what way were the hundreds of millions who died of smallpox more healthy than the people who lived thanks to the vaccine ?
Just another conspiracy theory website swallower who doesn't understand the human immune system.
Here we go.