22 Japanese high school boys broke 14:00 this year. Only 9 American HSers have EVER done it

dhehsisub wrote:

Why?

What are the Japanese high schoolers doing in training that American high schoolers are not?

Higher volume. Less room to develop after high school.

Elite Japanese track runners are improving, though. Osako's 5k is impressive and they just had three guys run under the 10k NR, led by a 27:18.

I don't think they do enough speed work at a young age to compete with Americans 800-10k. Everything is about developing future marathoners, which is sad because there is clearly a lot of talent on the track being wasted on the roads.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

But they are beating our best 20 year old college runners who are also doing high volume on older bodies.

889 wrote:

So why are they not besting the Africans in the Marathon?

Maybe because the E. Africans are supremely gifted? And they're running even more than the Japanese at a younger age simply because of the way they live ?

Sure, Japanese HS kids are running 13:3x for 5,000 in HS, but Jacob Kiplimo ran 13:24 when he was 15 YEARS OLD! That's just outraaaaaaageous.

This guy did a pretty detailed video on how the Japanese High Shoolers train and why he thinks they are better.

Are we sure that the Japanese are running accurate courses?

Seppo Kaitenenn wrote:

I don't think they do enough speed work at a young age to compete with Americans 800-10k. Everything is about developing future marathoners, which is sad because there is clearly a lot of talent on the track being wasted on the roads.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

I actually think you're right. But more specifically, I think they badly neglect speed-endurance training. And the emphasis on that type of training that Osako gets in Portland probably explains why he's the Japanese national record holder at three distances (3000, 5000, and marathon).

The Japanese NRs for 800 and 1,500 are 1:45.75 and 3:37.42. That's just ridiculous given the kind of middle-school talent I've seen in Japan at those distances. It's at least as good as any I've seen in the U.S.

So their coaches are doing something terribly wrong if they're serious about developing world-class middle-distance runners. I suspect they're not.

If I had to speculate it is because:

A) The country has a stronger distance running culture so teen talent is more attracted to the sport

B)More track distance races unlike US where the max is 3200m barring a few invites

You all forget that in America distance running is for dweebs who couldn't hack it playing soccer, football, basketball, etc. I say this as someone who ran XC in HS and was varsity with sub 17 times-with a bit of training half the soccer team probably could've beat me. US distance running simply doesn't get the cream of the crop at the high school level.

Taro wrote:

889 wrote:

So why are they not besting the Africans in the Marathon?

Maybe because the E. Africans are supremely gifted? And they're running even more than the Japanese at a younger age simply because of the way they live ?

Sure, Japanese HS kids are running 13:3x for 5,000 in HS, but Jacob Kiplimo ran 13:24 when he was 15 YEARS OLD! That's just outraaaaaaageous.

Yes, but the pool of runners and mileage, and popularity of running is similar. They should be up there with them all. Could it be doping is that widespread among the Africans? That could be the gap. Or is it just that being born at altitude and growing up training at altitude can bring that edge? Didn't Ryan Hall live and train @ alt, and also Emma Coburn?

You believe that the guys running 8:40 in high school are not he best high school runners in the US? There are soccer players who would run faster if they trained? I don't think many would agree with you. The US has done very well at a world level over the past 5 years. So if we would absolutely dominate in the world if we are missing some of the best runners. And you other point about not running the 5k does not explain how the Japanese high schoolers are running faster than the best college freshmen and sophomores.

I think there would be a lot more 8:40 guys and maybe some better, yes.

Standard Setter wrote:

I want to be clear, the Japanese care deeply about the Track and 5000m and 10,000m. There are specific corporate teams dedicated to success on the track from 1500-10,000m. Note that many of the recent great road runners for Japan are coming from these track programs, as their speed is translating well to road distance. Their Top 10 list reads more like America in the 1980s.

Top 10 All-Time Japan 5000m

13:08.40, Suguru Osako

13:12.63, Tetsura Yoroizaka

13:13.20, Takayuki Matsumiya

13:13.40, Toshinari Takaoka

---13:15.34

---13:18.10

13:13.60, Yuki Sato

13:18.32, Yu Mitsuya

13:18.49, Yuta Bando

13:18.99, Hyuga Endo

13:19.00, Kensuke Takezawa

13:19.62, Koto Murayama

Yes, there are some corporate teams like Asahi Kasei who tend to do better on the track than others, but even Asahi Kasei tries to be good at the marathon (and kind of fails). All teams care deeply about track in a sense that they still will very regulary enter track races, but mostly those races are basically used for practice (e.g. at the recent 10000m national champs guys like Aizawa, Ito and Tamura split a 5k time only some seconds worse than their 5000m SB/PB). While there of course are some examples like Takaoka who were able to translate their relatively good track speed, I don't think there's that much correlation, there are more than enough runners who were good on the road with very moderate track success (like recent Olympic trials champ Shogo Nakamura, who ran 13:50 as a 18 yo back in 2010, but with the exception of 2016, when he archieved his PB of 13:38, basically still runs around the same time in his yearly 5000m appearances)

take any age category there will be more than 80% of age cheaters in Japan

If I lived in Japan or was a coach in Japan I would encourage my athletes to run the 800 or 1500. The 800 seems like a real weak point of Japanese runners. If you break 1:53 you’re like in the top 20 in the country. Probably could win some cool stuff. The 5k is just way too deep. The 5k equivalent of 1:52 is like 14:30ish and I don’t even think that would rank you in the top 200 in Japan (I went on IAAF rankings) Not sure why more Talented Japanese runners don’t just say screw and it move down in distance.

Using just a few data points from this year and lining up average speed ratings and 5k track times, I estimate a 14 minute track 5k as earning about a 202 speed rating. An average 182 XC runner could take a legit run at sub 15 on the track.

Does that sound about right?

That would suggest the fastest performances this year are probably equivalently over 14:10 on the track.

Bad Wigins wrote:

And yet eleven US-born runners have ran faster than 13:08, compared to no Japanese ever.

That whole past participle (for completed action) or present participle (for continuous/still commencing action) thing really fooks you up.

sometimes wrote:

How many Japan high schoolers have run under 48? 1:50? 4:00?

You ever watch the Olympic or world champ 10ks and see the Japanese guys getting lapped?

Japan has the #4 time ever in the 4x100m relay, they're certainly not short on speed talent. I think they've just focused on the sprints and long distances rather than middle distance.

I'm pretty excited about Allon Tatsunami Clay who ran 1:46 in HS and is now at Texas A&M.

From my understanding Allon was running a lot of mileage in Japan... A&M's 800m program (which of course produced D. Brazier) is a proper 800m 30mpw long sprinting kind of deal.

He comes into A&M faster than Brazier was in HS. Japanese record should be a gimme for him.

Seppo Kaitenenn wrote:

dhehsisub wrote:

Why?

What are the Japanese high schoolers doing in training that American high schoolers are not?

Higher volume. Less room to develop after high school.

Elite Japanese track runners are improving, though. Osako's 5k is impressive and they just had three guys run under the 10k NR, led by a 27:18.

I don't think they do enough speed work at a young age to compete with Americans 800-10k. Everything is about developing future marathoners, which is sad because there is clearly a lot of talent on the track being wasted on the roads.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

That guy who ran 27:18 said something every interesting after the race. He couldn't do enough speed training while in college, because the focus was on Ekiden. So he started doing more speed work after college, and that led to his improvement in 10k. It seems they have it backwards.

I think their lack of passion for middle distance races in Japan costs them medals on the global stage. It is always easier to move up in distance then down, but if you don’t develop speed at a young age you will really be hurting down the line. In terms of championship racing, the winner is always the guy with the best kick, he got that kick by doing speed work and developing that type of strength. Japanese runners seem to be good time trialers, but times will always be beaten, medals and titles last forever!