Thoughts on 5,000 TT result

I'll definitely keep at it, thanks for the affirmation. Long runs are usually around 12 miles, but when the weather suddenly cools here it just feels damn good to go longer sometimes. Funny thing is, I've never raced a pure 5K, not on the roads and not on track. I've done few road races and cross country but all of them were longer than 5Ks, mainly 5.5-6.5 kms. I'd love to race a proper 5K or 5000 m on the track. Who knows how long I'd have to wait before that happens though.

Thank you for sharing your inspiring story, can't have enough of those. The most I've run in a single year was just under 1700 miles back in 2018. So far in 2020, I've run about 1450 miles.

I'm the original OP (made an account after this thread).

I want to update that I've run a road 5K TT today in better weather conditions and with the help of a bicycle pacer. I finished 5.01 km (according to Stryd footpod) in 16:57. My training has been similar to the training done before the previous TT back in November.

KM splits

1) 3:27.9

2 ) 3:27.5

3 ) 3:25.7

4 ) 3:24.2

5 ) 3:10.0

Avg HR: 91% Max

Max HR: 99% Max

Avg Cadence: 181 spm

Avg Stride Length: 1.59 m

Great run! Way to wrap up the year/start the new one. 3:10 last k? You’ve got faster times ahead of you.

Hope you have a great 2021!

Thank you. Sub 17 was one of 2021's goals and it feels funny achieving it on the first day. Like I mentioned earlier, the weather was very different two months ago and some posters underestimate its effects. I ran yesterday in 17.2 deg C / 59% RH and 4 km/h winds (62,96 F , 59% RH & 2.5 mi/h wind). The bike pacer made a big difference also.

Conversely, some posters are too fixed up on the runner's absolute age. There was a post with a 17:30 ceiling, or Canefis putting a mathematical formula on required weeks to reach 60 VDOT.

jiggymeister wrote:

KM splits

1) 3:27.9

2 ) 3:27.5

3 ) 3:25.7

4 ) 3:24.2

5 ) 3:10.0

Avg HR: 91% Max

Max HR: 99% Max

Avg Cadence: 181 spm

Avg Stride Length: 1.59 m

My opinion, this is not all out, you cheated: 03:27 first km and 03:10 last km, plus avg hr only 91%, when typically 95-97%. If last km would same and 91% avg hr I would say that your LT is low, but here last km much faster than first ones with relatively low avg hr all race.

Need better rabbit (pacer)! :-) How did you explain to your rabbit which pace to hold?

jiggymeister wrote:

KM splits

1) 3:27.9

2 ) 3:27.5

3 ) 3:25.7

4 ) 3:24.2

5 ) 3:10.0

Avg HR: 91% Max

Max HR: 99% Max

Avg Cadence: 181 spm

Avg Stride Length: 1.59 m

Try 03:20 rabbit pace and report with happiness here :)

Cheat? Interesting choice of words.

Nevertheless I do agree, it could have been faster, but it was my plan to run conservatively for the first 4 km and speeding in the last km to go sub 17 if I was feeling good, otherwise I would have stayed with the pace and run sub 17:20 which was my B goal, and my C goal would be a PB running anything below 17:51.

Regarding HR, my avg HR in the previous 5,000 TT was 92% avg HR, and it was an even paced run until the last 200 m.

I mentioned you in my previous post because you came up with the formula saying I need +30 weeks to reach 17:00 in the 5K.

Bottom line: there's more to running than your formulas.

Canefis wrote:

Summary you need:

33-47 weeks of training if weekly volume 6h.

For 2month it will be peanuts, only 1 vdot point, which is equal to shave 16sec+-2 from your PB.

I'm referring to this.

jiggymeister wrote:

Canefis wrote:

Summary you need:

33-47 weeks of training if weekly volume 6h.

For 2month it will be peanuts, only 1 vdot point, which is equal to shave 16sec+-2 from your PB.

I'm referring to this.

When progress is fast, there is no plateu yet, meaning that you have already high vdot value in your body, enjoi of process, this is great.

I tell you, when I started to run my vdot was 46 and after only 3 months got 56 (I'm cyclist in the past)

I'm definitely enjoying the process. Cheers.

However, both your anecdote and my result contradict the formula you were suggesting for my progress, so I'm confused as to why you'd suggest it.

jiggymeister wrote:

I'm definitely enjoying the process. Cheers.

However, both your anecdote and my result contradict the formula you were suggesting for my progress, so I'm confused as to why you'd suggest it.

Your TTs were not correct (92% HRmax it is 12-8K effort) most probably.

Better races, as TT can be tricky like here (...you tried to reach safer first below 18, then you said below 17 safer based on previous wrong TT interpratation....).

Usually, person who had in the past overweight and then dropped a lot has already quite high vo2max as it is diectly correlated with body weight.

One time I did 3k TT with 175 avg HR (91%Hrmax, low LT level) -bad TT for sure

So fast progress is good, but do not be dissapointed when you heat the wall, and then formula will start to work: you open strava account of any solid runner with few years statistic and you will see yourself how many hours they run avg per week and how much their PB's 5K, 10K, HM, M.

I compared more than 20 different runners with "low profile", "high profile", "low HR reserve", "high HR reserve", elites, pro, non-pro, women as well, except very young and kids and all of them same conclution: higher vdot-higher avg weekly running volume by time (very simple )

Canefis wrote:

same conclution: higher vdot-higher avg weekly running volume by time (very simple )

This is a no brainer. However, I'm criticizing your blind use for the formula. I mentioned all relevant information in the original post for the previous TT with HR information, but you still went ahead with your formula.

I think you should take the bigger picture before diving into a one-size-fits-all formula, much like your Wizard coach.

Canefis wrote:

One time I did 3k TT with 175 avg HR (91%Hrmax, low LT level) -bad TT for sure

Also, HR is not the only limiting factor. You can't attribute a good or bad day always to a HR value. The neuromuscular system is complex.

Nice progress! I recently ran a solo 5,000 TT on the track and got an 18:13 (3:36, 3:40, 3:41, 3:41, 3:32). It was below 30f outside and I ran pretty conservative, so I feel like I'm in sub 18 shape currently.

Anyway, I saw your earlier post before but am now very interested in your progression (hoping I could make a similar jump in 2 months). Could you go into more detail on your training between the two time trials?

Thank you. I read your TT report on /r/AdvancedRunning, good job toughing it out. I chuckled on that part of holding back the shout after seeing the track team. All too relatable.

Now about my training, I did not train much differently (nor more) in between the time trials. Perhaps more plyometrics in my strength sessions, and a lot of sling/obliques focus, and a bit more stationary cycling. The following is a copy-paste of the last 10 training weeks (from today), starting on the 8th of November so just a few days after the 17:51 TT.

(The data is pasted from runalyze.com)

Temp. Distance Duration Pace avg. HR Elev. Energy TRIMP VO2max Ground contact GCB Vertical oscillation

Week 2 10.01 - 16.01 2x 20 °C 13,4 km -61 % 1:12:08 5:23/km 72 % 28 m 853 kcal 98 269 ms 50.3L/49.7R % 7.3 cm

Week 1 03.01 - 09.01 5x 21 °C 35,0 km -22 % 3:07:38 5:21/km 73 % 73 m 2253 kcal 295 268 ms 50.1L/49.9R % 7.8 cm

Week 53 27.12 - 02.01 8x 20 °C 45,1 km -15 % 3:44:03 4:58/km 74 % 116 m 2900 kcal 346 257 ms 50.4L/49.6R % 7.9 cm

Week 52 20.12 - 26.12 8x 21 °C 53,4 km -11 % 4:32:08 5:06/km 71 % 88 m 3157 kcal 373 268 ms 50.5L/49.5R % 7.7 cm

Week 51 13.12 - 19.12 10x 20 °C 60,5 km -5 % 5:02:28 5:00/km 73 % 114 m 3568 kcal 453 268 ms 50.2L/49.8R % 7.8 cm

Week 50 06.12 - 12.12 8x 23 °C 64,2 km -1 % 5:30:50 5:09/km 73 % 101 m 3786 kcal 479 269 ms 50.1L/49.9R % 7.9 cm

Week 49 29.11 - 05.12 8x 23 °C 65,3 km +2 % 5:41:21 5:14/km 73 % 113 m 3910 kcal 480 272 ms 50.3L/49.7R % 7.9 cm

Week 48 22.11 - 28.11 9x 22 °C 63,7 km +27 % 5:40:09 5:20/km 71 % 172 m 3691 kcal 463 280 ms 50.3L/49.7R % 7.9 cm

Week 47 15.11 - 21.11 5x 24 °C 50,1 km +0 % 4:20:26 5:12/km 71 % 144 m 2973 kcal 344 269 ms 50.2L/49.8R % 7.3 cm

Week 46 08.11 - 14.11 8x 26 °C 49,9 km - 4:17:05 5:09/km 75 % 407 m 3253 kcal 424 264 ms 50.4L/49.6R % 7.3 cm

Key sessions:

- 20 NOVEMBER 2020: 20 km long run with last 6 km @ M pace (4:24.3, 4:16.0, 4:14.9, 4:16.4, 4:14.8, 3:57.9)

- 23 NOVEMBER 2020: 5x1000 m @ I pace w/ ~ 3' recovery jog. Avg time per 1000 = 3:28.36

- 24 NOVEMBER 2020: 3x1600m @ T pace w/ 1' standing rest. Hilly. Avg time per 1600 = 6:41.16

- 30 NOVEMBER 2020: 8x400 m @ R pace w/ 400 m recovery jog & 100 m sprint. Avg time per 400 = 76.21", fastest rep 70.7. The 100 was in 14.4.

- 4 DECEMBER 2020: 21.11km long run with last 6 km @ M-T effort (4:15.2, 4:11.8, 4:06.4, 4:05.6, 4:01.3, 3:54.1)

- 7 DECEMBER 2020: 5x1000 m w/ 400 m jog (3:22.4, 3:25.5, 3:31.3, 3:31.5, 3:21.8)

- 14 DECEMBER 2020: 4 x (800,200) w/ 200 jog between reps, 2-3' rest between sets + 2 x 100. (Avg 800's = 2:36 (3:15 min/km), Avg 200's = 35.025 (2:55.125 min/km) + avg 100's = 15.5 (2:35 min/km))

- 17 DECEMBER 2020: 10K (road) TT = 37:00.9 (3:42 min/km)

- 21 December 2020 (Probably the most important quality day leading up to the TT): 6 x 1000 m @ I pace w/ 400 jg + 2 x 200 m very hard = Avg 3:28.25 for the 1000's & 32.15 for the 200's. I then proceeded to run a 3:07.1 kilometer in the parking lot with lots of sharp turns (track closed after the 200's).

- 25 DECEMBER 2020: 17 km long run with last 5 km @ M pace (4:14.0, 4:12.9, 4:14.4, 4:11.5, 3:58.1)

- 28 DECEMBER 2020: 7 x 200 m @ 5K-Mile pace w/ 200 m jog (Avg 40.46)

- 1 JANUARY 2021: 5K TT

Thanks man! I really think the hardest part of my TT was fighting the cold (so that’s a promising sign). In hindsight I should have just let it out. But it felt embarrassing to celebrate my time when those guys could break 18 in their sleep. Haha

Awesome info! As you may have seen in my post, I’m sticking with the JD plan as well so I’ll be doing a lot of the same workouts. May add in some M pace work on my long runs, too. My next 5k race is in March and my next 5,000m TT in early April. If I could break 17:30 in one of those I’d be stoked. If I get below 17:00 I’d be over the moon.

Hope to see more of your progress!

Half marathon solo TT

~ 5.4 km flat loop

per Stryd footpod:

1:24:30

Avg pace 4:00 min/km (6:26 min/mile)

Temperature at start: 20 degrees C (68 F) & 68% RH, got up to 22 degrees.

Started off pretty well running 3:56 per km and dropping to 3:50 for km 8 & 9, but began to feel flat after 12 km. From there it got much slower and it was a battle to keep it going. Still a +3 minute PB off of a 5K training block.

Water or coconut water every lap. No gels.