the more important question wrote:
I agree that Salazar and Brown acted unethically.
But arguing with rekrunner is pointless. He moves the goalposts so far around the pitch that he is is scoring own goals.
Salazar and Brown's ethics were not my "goalposts".
Salazar and Brown banned, athletes shamed and reputations tarnished.
Facts!
drug drug wrote:
Salazar and Brown banned, athletes shamed and reputations tarnished.
Facts!
I see why Salazar and Brown were banned, for several reasons unrelated to thyroid hormone.
But why should athletes be shamed and reputations be tarnished when thryoid hormone is not banned by WADA and is not considered performance enhancing by WADA. You showed us yourself with your own link -- the peak performance is normal thyroid behavior.
rekrunner wrote:
drug drug wrote:
Salazar and Brown banned, athletes shamed and reputations tarnished.
Facts!
I see why Salazar and Brown were banned, for several reasons unrelated to thyroid hormone.
But why should athletes be shamed and reputations be tarnished when thryoid hormone is not banned by WADA and is not considered performance enhancing by WADA. You showed us yourself with your own link -- the peak performance is normal thyroid behavior.
Circular reasoning much?
The athletes and coaches who blew the whistle on Brown and Sleazy were not in agreement with the procedures they reported.
These accusations have been constantly repeated here on letsrun.com for many years. They had substance because they were specific allegations made by insiders. Did you not pay attention to them?
the more important question wrote:
rekrunner wrote:
I see why Salazar and Brown were banned, for several reasons unrelated to thyroid hormone.
But why should athletes be shamed and reputations be tarnished when thryoid hormone is not banned by WADA and is not considered performance enhancing by WADA. You showed us yourself with your own link -- the peak performance is normal thyroid behavior.
Circular reasoning much?
The athletes and coaches who blew the whistle on Brown and Sleazy were not in agreement with the procedures they reported.
These accusations have been constantly repeated here on letsrun.com for many years. They had substance because they were specific allegations made by insiders. Did you not pay attention to them?
Not at all -- it is linear reasoning about the ethics of a non-banned, non-performance enhancing substance, having no connection with the allegations against a coach and a doctor and the other reasons they were banned.
If you don’t understand the difference between legal and ethical, there’s no point arguing with you.
Not sure what occurred but nobody has any business giving someone else medication, vitamins, supplements etc to another individual unless they are a doctor and trained and licensed to do so.
drug drug wrote:
If you don’t understand the difference between legal and ethical, there’s no point arguing with you.
This difference between legal and ethical is what triggered the question.
The question is ethics of athletes taking a WADA legal substance considered by WADA to not enhance performance.
Can you propose an answer that does not mention Salazar; that does not mention Dr. Brown; that does not mention other drugs; and that does not attempt to argue contrary to WADA's clear position?
If not, then we are in agreement that it will be pointless.
It is unethical for athletes to manipulate medical tests and lie to a doctor to obtain medications meant for the sick in an effort to raise their testosterone, lose weight, and recover from workouts in an effort to improve their athletic performance against others not using these drugs.
If fact, it was Salazar’s use of thyroid hormone on his athletes that brought the negative publicity to his group and opened up the investigation that uncovered the other doping that led to his downfall.
drug drug wrote:
It is unethical for athletes to manipulate medical tests and lie to a doctor to obtain medications meant for the sick in an effort to raise their testosterone, lose weight, and recover from workouts in an effort to improve their athletic performance against others not using these drugs.
I don't find it particularly unethical to " raise their testosterone, lose weight, and recover from workouts" by legal means.
But according to you, it's not really the thyroid medication per se, but the athlete "deception" to get on it? It depends on his intention and state of mind?
What if the athlete genuinely complains about chronic fatigue, and, on the recommendation of his coach, goes to a sports specialist endocrinologist? Then it would be ethical?
As you proved to us, the line between normal function and medical need is not well defined.
drug drug wrote:
If fact, it was Salazar’s use of thyroid hormone on his athletes that brought the negative publicity to his group and opened up the investigation that uncovered the other doping that led to his downfall.
Contrary to your fact, the trigger for the investigation was a written complaint from Magness to USADA about l-carnitine and testosterone.
You glossed over the fact that the athletes flew across the county to see an unethical doctor who would eventually be banned, manipulated their physical condition to obtain a certain result on a medical test, and received coaching from Salazar about what to say in order to receive chemically produced hormones in order to use them as a performance enhancing drug.
The negative publicity, eventually leading to a ban, on Salazar and his runners all began with his unethical use of thyroid hormone. You may not see it as unethical. However, Runners World, the New York Times, and the BBC and pretty much the entire running community, including the owners of this website view injections of chemically created hormones to artificially induce higher testosterone, lose weight and recover from workouts as being unethical and a form of cheating.
If you don’t see it as being unethical, you are entitled to your opinion. However, it would appear the general consensus, as noted by many media outlets, that it was highly unethical behavior.
You can keep posting to the contrary and bumping this to top, further shaming Solinsky and his use of thyroid hormone as a PED if you like.
Perhaps the owners of this website, since they posted the initial thread about Solinsky using thyroid hormone would reach out to Solinsky for comment.
dint feed the troll wrote:
You glossed over the fact that the athletes flew across the county to see an unethical doctor who would eventually be banned, manipulated their physical condition to obtain a certain result on a medical test, and received coaching from Salazar about what to say in order to receive chemically produced hormones in order to use them as a performance enhancing drug.
The negative publicity, eventually leading to a ban, on Salazar and his runners all began with his unethical use of thyroid hormone. You may not see it as unethical. However, Runners World, the New York Times, and the BBC and pretty much the entire running community, including the owners of this website view injections of chemically created hormones to artificially induce higher testosterone, lose weight and recover from workouts as being unethical and a form of cheating.
If you don’t see it as being unethical, you are entitled to your opinion. However, it would appear the general consensus, as noted by many media outlets, that it was highly unethical behavior.
You can keep posting to the contrary and bumping this to top, further shaming Solinsky and his use of thyroid hormone as a PED if you like.
Perhaps the owners of this website, since they posted the initial thread about Solinsky using thyroid hormone would reach out to Solinsky for comment.
Many of these things were mentioned before, and I thought we were going to leave Salazar and Brown out of the discussion. I consistently do not want to discuss the ethics of a coach and a doctor, who were banned for other substances, but of athletes taking a substance that is not banned and not performance enhancing. We agreed it would be pointless. I guess you keep going back to that because you don't have any other point.
The general consensus view you describe seems to exclude WADA. It cannot be a form of cheating if no rule is broken.
You keep saying things like "The negative publicity, eventually leading to a ban, on Salazar and his runners all began with his unethical use of thyroid hormone" -- this is just plain wrong as a matter of fact. Not only is this not true -- it seems it is you that cannot separate legality from ethics.
If it was ethical, the athletes could obtain thyroid hormone from any endocrinologist, not fly across the country to a doctor who proved to be so corrupt he ended being banned.
If it was ethical, athletes would not be subject of media articles, books, and television documentaries on their use of thyroid hormone therapy.
If it was ethical, the athletes would not face condemnation from their competitors and rival coaches for using thyroid hormone therapy.
If it was ethical, it would be a non issue in the media and in general discussion on track.
If it was ethical, the section in the new book calling out Solinski for using hormone therapy would not exist.
If it was ethical, the owners of this website would not have started this thread.
Please keep this thread active to further shame Solinski about his use of thyroid hormone therapy.
drug drug wrote:
If it was ethical, the athletes could obtain thyroid hormone from any endocrinologist, not fly across the country to a doctor who proved to be so corrupt he ended being banned.
If it was ethical, athletes would not be subject of media articles, books, and television documentaries on their use of thyroid hormone therapy.
If it was ethical, the athletes would not face condemnation from their competitors and rival coaches for using thyroid hormone therapy.
If it was ethical, it would be a non issue in the media and in general discussion on track.
If it was ethical, the section in the new book calling out Solinski for using hormone therapy would not exist.
If it was ethical, the owners of this website would not have started this thread.
Please keep this thread active to further shame Solinski about his use of thyroid hormone therapy.
You seem to have a grudge against Solinski. You need to get over that and accept he was better than you.
I actually have a problem with all cheats in track and field using grey area cheating. I was disappointed that he used thyroid hormones just like Rupp. He was one guy I thought was doing it on hard work and talent alone. But it appears he joins the long list of top US distance runners to have used thyroid hormone therapy as a PED. Presently legal l or not it’s unethical and dangerous.
I actually hope he can come out and deny the accusation and honestly state he never used hormone therapy.
drug drug wrote:
If it was ethical, the athletes could obtain thyroid hormone from any endocrinologist, not fly across the country to a doctor who proved to be so corrupt he ended being banned.
If it was ethical, athletes would not be subject of media articles, books, and television documentaries on their use of thyroid hormone therapy.
If it was ethical, the athletes would not face condemnation from their competitors and rival coaches for using thyroid hormone therapy.
If it was ethical, it would be a non issue in the media and in general discussion on track.
If it was ethical, the section in the new book calling out Solinski for using hormone therapy would not exist.
If it was ethical, the owners of this website would not have started this thread.
Please keep this thread active to further shame Solinski about his use of thyroid hormone therapy.
You seem to be confused about what makes something unethical, not to mention confused on some of the facts. You also seem unable to decouple thyroid hormones from more serious offenses.
Salazar/Nike used Dr. Brown for many other reasons besides thyroid hormones. It is not unusual for a company like Nike to engage its own professional staff.
"casual obsever" showed us that the WADA lab in Rome had athletes declaring thyroid hormones 10x more than the normal population. Given the non-US location, this suggests many coaches/doctors offer thyroid hormones to athletes -- coaches/doctors who were not proven corrupt, nor banned. Salazar/Brown were banned, but not for anything related to thyroid.
The ban of Salazar/Brown for other unrelated offenses looks like a red-herring. The fact that you keep going back to the bans shows me that you cannot make the case on the strength and merits of thyroid alone. It makes your arguments weaker and less compelling.
The subject of media articles, books, and television went far beyond thyroid hormone therapy, to include more serious issues such as shipments of drugs in books over international borders, use of testosterone, obsession with legal means (Alpha Male and Testo-Boost) to raise testosterone, and an excessive infusion of l-carnitine, and emotional abuse and body-shaming.
Generally media loves things that looks like scandals, even when they lack merit. It is good for sales.
I'm not hugely interested in the views of their rival competitors, unless they can answer the same question with a specificity that you cannot -- what exactly is the ethical issue, given WADA's position that it is not banned, nor considered performance enhancing? Otherwise, I have to conclude that their view is similarly driven by confusion and misinformation or lack of information. Perhaps they are unaware that WADA does not ban thyroid hormone therapy, nor consider it performance enhancing.
I can see the ethical issue for coaches and doctors -- pushing athletes towards a treatment they may not need, can potentially harm the athlete. No coach or doctor should be putting athletes in potential harm.
The website owners started a thread about a book about "Nike", and not one narrow issue about "NOP".
Solinsky should feel no shame for his use of thyroid hormone. It is not banned by WADA and WADA does not consider it performance enhancing.
Earlier you showed us an article that said "there is a clear peak point – normal thyroid function". When you say "artificially induce higher testosterone, lose weight and recover from workouts as being unethical and a form of cheating" -- this is part of the misinformation. Your own link shows that these levels would not exceed that of normal thyroid function.
So for example, if testosterone levels are raised, it is because thyroid function was less than normal -- indicating a medical need. And if thyroid function were normal, then testosterone levels would not be raised.
You also said "injections of chemically created hormones" which leads me to think you are generally confused about thyroid hormone -- thyroid hormones come in a pill.
If thyroid hormone therapy was considered ethical it would not be a topic of enquiry by Runners World, the New York Times, and the BBC. There are numerous negative articles based solely on the unethical use of thyroid hormone therapy alone.
It is not normal practice for athletes to fly across the country to see a doctor. Most athletes barely have enough sponsorship to fly to races.
The doctor has proven to be unethical and is now banned. So is the coach.
I also checked online and thyroid hormone therapy is administered by both pills and injections.
And you still haven’t mentioned the unethical nature of athletes being coached to deplete themselves before seeing doctor and being told what to say to obtain these drugs to use them as PEDs.
They purposely used the drugs, meant for people with a real sickness, to raise testosterone, lose weight, and recover from workouts.
If you can’t see why that’s unethical, your moral compass is off.
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