Matt Hart's new Nike book is great - Salazar once tried to kiss Kara Goucher and said Solinsky ran 26:59 because of thyroid meds

For someone who saved so many quotes, here is the original goalpost:

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If it is not performance enhancing, and not banned, what exactly is the ethical issue?

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But seeing that you neither view Salazar's or Brown's transgressions as unethical, for which they even got banned from the sport, this is another pointless "discussion".

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Holy, if rekrunner isn’t a paid Nike troll idk what. Amazing how someone manage to always take the worst possible position in every discussion. Maybe even beats out Coevett for the title of most dishonest poster on the site.

Thank you. I will read this book.

Salazar is banned for sending his runners to lie and manipulate a medical test to secure thyroid hormones.

Dr. Brown is banned for illegally and unethically prescribing thyroid hormones to Salazar’s runners.

You can’t change facts to suit your agenda.

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JohnnyS wrote:
Holy, if rekrunner isn’t a paid Nike troll idk what. Amazing how someone manage to always take the worst possible position in every discussion. Maybe even beats out Coevett for the title of most dishonest poster on the site.

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winner winner wrote:
Salazar is banned for sending his runners to lie and manipulate a medical test to secure thyroid hormones.

Dr. Brown is banned for illegally and unethically prescribing thyroid hormones to Salazar’s runners.

You can’t change facts to suit your agenda.

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rekrunner wrote:
I ruled out "supposed to be performance enhancing" and "just to be able to run faster"

I ruled out references to Salazar and Brown,

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USADA wrote:
The panel determined that Salazar committed the following violations of the Code:

1. Administration of a Prohibited Method (with respect to an infusion in excess of the applicable limit),
2. Tampering and/or attempted tampering with the doping control process, and
3. Trafficking of testosterone through involvement in a testosterone testing program in violation of the rules.

The panel determined that Brown violated anti-doping rules by:

1. Tampering with patient records under WADA (World Anti-Doping Agency) Code Art. 2.5 (2009 & 2015), which carries a sanction of 2 years WADA Code Art. 10.3.1 (2009), and 4 years under WADA Code Art. 10.3.1 (2015).
2. Administration of an over-limit L-carnitine infusion under WADA Code Art. 2.8 (2009 & 2015), which carries a minimum sanction of 4 years up to a maximum lifetime ban under WADA Code Art. 10.3.2 (2009) and WADA Code Art. 10.3.3 (2015).
3. Complicity in Salazar’s trafficking of testosterone under WADA Code Art. 2.8 (2009) and WADA Code Art. 2.9 (2015). Under WADA Code Art. 10.3.2 (2009), a complicity violation carries a minimum sanction of 4 years up to a maximum lifetime ban. Under WADA Code Art. 10.3.4 (2015), a complicity violation carries a sanction of 2 to 4 years.

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adjective. lacking moral principles; unwilling to adhere to proper rules of conduct. not in accord with the standards of a profession: She treated patients outside the area of her training, and the appropriate medical organization punished her unethical behavior.

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casual obsever wrote:

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rekrunner wrote:
I ruled out "supposed to be performance enhancing" and "just to be able to run faster"

I ruled out references to Salazar and Brown,

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Yes you tried ruling all of that out, but you really can't because a) the athletes did it to become faster, not to cure their thyroids and b) the corrupt Brown was involved in most cases.
And c) recall the source claiming that over 90% didn't need those meds, and that even USADA and UKAD suspect abuse.

Finally you don't have the power, not even on behalf of letsrun, to judge what's unethical and what's not. According to your very words in this thread, you even question whether Salazar and Brown were unethical. Ridiculo.

Remember:

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USADA wrote:
The panel determined that Salazar committed the following violations of the Code:
...

The panel determined that Brown violated anti-doping rules by:
...

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unethical according to dictionary.com

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adjective. lacking moral principles; unwilling to adhere to proper rules of conduct. not in accord with the standards of a profession: She treated patients outside the area of her training, and the appropriate medical organization punished her unethical behavior.

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Clearly this applies to Salazar and Brown, who even got banned for being "unwilling to adhere to proper rules of conduct" and acting "not in accord with the standards of a profession", among other things. Unless you want to claim that "trafficking of testosterone" and "Tampering with patient records" is adhering to proper rules of conduct and in accord with the standards of their profession.

Your standards are all messed up.

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since when is it against the rules to abuse thyroid meds?

Body builders use thyroid hormones as a PED too. It clearly works.

You are trying to find a tiny loophole to exonerate a distance coach and an endocrinologist who colluded to cheat with thyroid hormones. They got caught and banned.

That’s another reason not to take thyroid hormone. Everyone knows you cheated an the only person who will defend you is a moron.

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crazy bag lady wrote:
since when is it against the rules to abuse thyroid meds?

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same same drugg wrote:
Body builders use thyroid hormones as a PED too. It clearly works.

You are trying to find a tiny loophole to exonerate a distance coach and an endocrinologist who colluded to cheat with thyroid hormones. They got caught and banned.

That’s another reason not to take thyroid hormone. Everyone knows you cheated an the only person who will defend you is a moron.

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same same drugg wrote:
Body builders use thyroid hormones as a PED too. It clearly works.

You are trying to find a tiny loophole to exonerate a distance coach and an endocrinologist who colluded to cheat with thyroid hormones. They got caught and banned.

That’s another reason not to take thyroid hormone. Everyone knows you cheated an the only person who will defend you is a moron.

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You are right, it is not currently banned. However, athletes are using it, in many sports, as a performance enhancing drug, which clearly works based on the fact that these runners used it:

Salazar
Kennedy
Ritizheimer
Rupp
Solinski
Tegenkamp
Hall

This in any court of law is evidence! And it leads to a logical conclusion!

Just because it’s not currently banned, does not mean it does not work!

Also, you can bet it will be banned in the future!

Athletes are using it to stay competitive with athletes already using it. Which explains why both Nike groups were big abusers of it.

Salazar clearly thinks it works and attributed Solinski’s sun 27 10000m directly to thyroid hormone therapy.

Would you want your kid using it in the way Salazar had his athletes using it?

If you narrowly view current rules and law as final, concrete findings, you are an idiot. Laws and rules change all the time.

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same same drugg wrote:
You are right, it is not currently banned. However, athletes are using it, in many sports, as a performance enhancing drug, which clearly works based on the fact that these runners used it:

Salazar
Kennedy
Ritizheimer
Rupp
Solinski
Tegenkamp
Hall

This in any court of law is evidence! And it leads to a logical conclusion!

Just because it’s not currently banned, does not mean it does not work!

Also, you can bet it will be banned in the future!

Athletes are using it to stay competitive with athletes already using it. Which explains why both Nike groups were big abusers of it.

Salazar clearly thinks it works and attributed Solinski’s sun 27 10000m directly to thyroid hormone therapy.

Would you want your kid using it in the way Salazar had his athletes using it?

If you narrowly view current rules and law as final, concrete findings, you are an idiot. Laws and rules change all the time.

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Solinsky sub 27 had nothing to do with thyroid hormones. He was a genetic freak. Look at his HS training and progression. He had very strong bones and could handle 130+ mpw as pro all under 6 min pace. Even Tegenkamp said no one in their training group, not a single runner was able to hang with Solinsky on his runs or could keep up his training even for 1 week.

What was a factor in getting sub 27 was that he lost weight for that race, but thyroid medication is a two-edged sword in that regard. Yes, it boosts metabolism but you also get more hungry/eat more, in the end losing weight is just as hard as not taking it.

Thyroid meds don't work to lose weight in all people, a lot even gain weight because of the increased hunger and eating all the time. People blame their thyroids for being overweight and sometimes they actually do manage to lose weight with it, but that can also just be a huge placebo effect.

His hormone profile is on the USADA report, Solinsky's TSH, ft3 and ft4 were all in the norm range (TSH just barely above 2), supplementing thyroid is not going to change anything for him, unless they supplement him with so much that his TSH goes down to <0.3 or even becomes unmeasurable and he gets hyper and actually worse.

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same same drugg wrote:
You are right, it is not currently banned. However, athletes are using it, in many sports, as a performance enhancing drug, which clearly works based on the fact that these runners used it:

Salazar
Kennedy
Ritizheimer
Rupp
Solinski
Tegenkamp
Hall

This in any court of law is evidence! And it leads to a logical conclusion!

Just because it’s not currently banned, does not mean it does not work!

Also, you can bet it will be banned in the future!

Athletes are using it to stay competitive with athletes already using it. Which explains why both Nike groups were big abusers of it.

Salazar clearly thinks it works and attributed Solinski’s sun 27 10000m directly to thyroid hormone therapy.

Would you want your kid using it in the way Salazar had his athletes using it?

If you narrowly view current rules and law as final, concrete findings, you are an idiot. Laws and rules change all the time.

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Who do you think knows about more about using thyroid hormone as a PED on elite distance runners? Salazar who has done actual unauthorized experiments with it on elite athletes or WADA who are restricted to old research using ethical standards on the elderly and sick?

The dopers are ALWAYS ahead of the testers!

I am not the one attributing Solinski’s sub 27 to hormone therapy. It was the world’s leading distance coach and the most knowledgeable person in the world on the effects of hormone therapy on elite distance runners. Alberto Salazar