KJ has plenty of race results for anyone to know how legit he is. You don't need to check his Strava for proof.
Nobody cares about his 10k time enough for him to fake it. He's a mountain runner, one of the best ever.
KJ has plenty of race results for anyone to know how legit he is. You don't need to check his Strava for proof.
Nobody cares about his 10k time enough for him to fake it. He's a mountain runner, one of the best ever.
True, kilian has been known to make excuses before races so that his fans will place him even higher on pedal stool if he runs well. Truth is, almost every athlete has a niggles on race day. People make excuses for kilian slow time stating he is a trail runner when in fact he has been focused on flat training and speed for over 6 months. He isn't a diverse athlete and fans don't want to accept it because they believed the lies about his sub 30 10k in practice. Dont be fooled so easily
I bet Letesenbet Gidey would absolutely torch him in a 10k. She ran 29:12 for the last 10k of her 15k world best from last November!
My general answer: Small sample size. Yes, his Hardrock and UTMB wins (again also really not that technical courses) shows excellent "long mountain range" as a lot of that requires powerhiking on the climbs (partly because of the altitude and the sheer volume of doing over 30,000' of vert in one push....and the % grade of the climbs) keep in mind his UTMB winning times are not the fastest (and yes, I realize there have been a lot of course variations there and the weather and nature of the race influences times a lot!). Hardrock is very niche and a very small sample size. Not very many people (especially great road runners) even get the chance to attempt the course as part of the race because it is basically impossible to get into! No doubt Kilian could go faster there if he had some competition, but I'd still argue his CR at Sierre-Zinal is a much better competitive performance. Sierre-Zinal gets the 2:11 marathoner guys, has decades of history, and has thousands of runners in it each year. It is THE iconic mountain race. For him to run basically an "untouchable" CR there is a way better performance than anything else I can think of that he has done. Maybe someone else can add to this? But again it comes down to the numbers with the competitive history and relative performances. So many MUT events are quite niche and small scale events that are super obscure with not much depth in competitiion (at least compared to large scale road races or track and xc running at the NCAA/pro level). There are a lot of barriers to entry. A lot of great East African road runners (who in my mind could crush some mountain-ultra-trail events) don't even know they can make money from this sport! Sure the 2:15 guy loses to the 2:25 guy at UTMB sometimes (or even at Sierre-Zinal), but generally performances correlate very closely to marathon times ....just like fast 10km times often correlate very well to good marathon times.
If you look at the video you can see that KJ is a good runner but that he is maxed out at three minutes per kilometer speed. He’s strong at that speed but he can’t go faster. There’s a Norwegian guy in front of him who’s built like a cross country skier and KJ could just not make any inroads on him. This is a different sport and KJ is no 28 minute runner that’s for sure.
Thanks again Sage (I'm being super polite here to show I'm not one of the usual argumentative guys on Let's Run ?). So, if running is running, I think you're saying there are a ton more people who can go out there and really compete well at mut races who just don't access them for whatever reason? And worldwide? Seems like an interesting theory...I'm not totally sold on it yet, though. But you're slowly convincing me. I do know that a technical mountain course uses my muscles and body systems differently than a flat road course, but I agree that if I'm generally overall fitter, I do better in both.
So, an a related question: what percentage of performance on a course in a mountain race...maybe like Pike's Peak, is based on skills unique to trail running (like being able to run in uneven surfaces, hopping around here and there's etc)? Or SZ? Or hardrock? I assume they're all different in technicality, but how much does having trail/technical type skills impact performance vs overall fitness, in your opinion?
I'm not a great example, but I fare better in road races placing wise than trail/mountain stuff (though I love the trails and mountains). I often have better road racing results than guys who beat me in trail races....even if the trail race is not very technical. I definitely slow down disproportionately compared to my closer competition the more technical a race is, even though I can beat them consistently on roads or track. Interesting!
Confuzzled wrote:
I bet Letesenbet Gidey would absolutely torch him in a 10k. She ran 29:12 for the last 10k of her 15k world best from last November!
Nice, only 9 seconds slower than Filip.
What I love about watching Killian is that he does it just for fun. Look at him when he's scampering the rocks.... he's smiling and having fun. He's incredible. Hey Jakob and his brothers are incredible too. They're just different sports.
I think this just goes to show how fundamentally different ultra running and traditional distances are. I know KJ does speedwork on the track some times but doubt that he ever does much top end work required to run faster than this 10k result.
Thanks for your polite comment then! Like I said...I think it's a numbers game. So n=1 stories aren't great examples. Say we throw 10 guys who are 2:10-2:15 marathoners in a race like Sierre-Zinal (7,000' of climbing including grades over 20% on the initial climb!), but only 19 miles and not technical trails (there are a few rocks and really steep downhills in the final 2-3km though). Let's say they do some "hill training" for a couple months, but are in good shape in general with mix of long runs, tempos and speed sessions. Well I'd say 4-5 of them might totally blow up and have some serious issues (cramping, bonking etc). Probably run over 2:45. But then the other 5-6 are probably going to do pretty well (ie. sub 2:45-2:40 on that course), and maybe 2-3 of them might crack the top 10 and or even run 2:30 and win. But there's a learning curve with that time period to train and prepare and each MUT race can be very, very different with specific training workouts and fueling/hydration strategy. The first time I ran Sierre-Zinal (2013) I ran like 2:45 and had debilitating hamstring cramps. Last year I ran 2:38 and chugged 5 gels. But like I said, n=1 stories is not good data for trends. The other thing: Pikes Peak, Sierre-Zinal and Hardrock are all quite different. Yes, Kilian has won all three, but his best performance by far was at Sierre-Zinal IMO. Again, hardly anyone does Hardrock. Its a 20+ hour race and it's really hard to get entry into. It has a bit more in common with UTMB, but it is unique because of the high altitude and more "rugged" feel (compared to say a Leadville or WS100). Again though, I haven't done Hardrock but I've trained on most of the course. Sierre-Zinal and Pikes Peak have more in common (not really technical trails although the top half of Pikes is certainly not smooth like Sierre-Zinal is mostly). But the length of race (19 to 26 miles) and the total climb (7000' of vert) is similar. Granted Pikes is more "extreme altitude" going up to 14,000' whereas Sierre-Zinal tops out around 8000' I believe. Sierre Zinal also hits you with 20% grade uphill grades on a massive initial climb, whereas the climb up Pikes only averages about 10% grade only I believe and is very "runnable" until about the final mile. It's a matter of Variable Running Economy (efficiency) so some of that is tied up in technical skills and muscle/motor patterns depending on the terrain, but some of that is tied up in hydration and fueling and pacing. The other aspect of Running Economy is tied up in Vo2max (well more "wiggle room" with a high Vo2max) and lactate threshold power and managing that... I can't really throw out any percentage guesses because it depends too much on the course, the individual , and exactly how their specific training changes (as well as their athletic history). Sure a lot of road and track runners aren't going to have that "Full mix" of Any Surface Any Distance (I myself certainly haven't done it that well even though I try!) but some can be trained and the sample size of fast guys going over to MUT is still pretty small.
Thanks for responding! I think your answer might show that we agree more than disagree ...your hypothetical race scenario there shows that it's not as easy as just throwing a good road/track runner into a mountain race and they will dominate. There are specific adaptations that these runners would have to make to succeed in the mountains/trails. Though I can totally see how you feel that strong marathoners would have the base to make those adaptations more quickly and successfully, which makes sense to me.
This is where I see people doubt Kilian and his bullsh!tting... here he does his sub-30' VK followed by a 29:42 for 10,000m road... remember also when he ran sub-30:00 for 10km road TWICE because his watch failed to upload for the World Relay?? He's a great athlete, but he's not running sub-2:20 marathon any time soon.
Here are some tips if any of you flatlanders want to try to keep up with the master on technical trails.
[quote]Standard Setter wrote:
This is where I see people doubt Kilian and his bullsh!tting... quote]
Practice!! We talking about practice? Practice? I mean how silly is that? And we're talking about practice.
I only concern myself with how runners do when they RACE!!
2014 - Skyrunning and Vertical KM World Champion
2008, 2011, 2013 - Skyrunning, Ultra and Vertical Kilometer European Champion
World Cup and Championship
2019 - Golden Trail Series Champion
2007, 2008, 2009, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2018 – Skyrunning World Cup Champion
2012, 2013, 2014 - Ultra Running World Cup Champion
2014 - Vertical Kilometer World Champion
Important races
4x - Winner and recormdan Hardrock 100
9x - Winner Zegama Aizkorri
6x – Winner Sierre Zinal
4x - Winner Trofeo Kima
3x - Winner Ultra Trail du Mont Blanc
2x - Winner and recormdan Ultra Pirineu
3x - Winner Vertical KM Fully
Ski Mountaineering
European and World Championships
2010, 2011, 2013, 2015, 2017 - Vertical Race World Champion
2011, 2015 - Individual World Champion
World Cup
2010, 2011, 2012, 2016 - Winner of individual World Cup
2015, 2016 - Winner of Vertical Race World Cup
More than 30 podiums in the World Cup since 2008
I only go by real race results:
90 seconds slower than high school children
chicked x 10
way slower than he claims for training
beaten by a dozen Norwegian sub-elites
Why has he never run the Mountain World Championship?
missing something wrote:
Why has he never run the Mountain World Championship?
My guess is $$$ potential?
jogfest wrote:
I only go by real race results:
90 seconds slower than high school children
chicked x 10
way slower than he claims for training
beaten by a dozen Norwegian sub-elites
In one race? It's a sample size of 1 where you have 10 years of racing history to use before that which you can try correlate to a degree...
Not saying he is going to run sub 28, but to use a single race where his first km was 2:48 so obviously got pacing horribly wrong to then make statements is also daft.
Let's hope he has another go and then there is a sample of 2 to use .. Sure he could do at least < 29:20 if he goes again
missing something wrote:
Why has he never run the Mountain World Championship?
He has a well known conflict with the Spanish federation. Also, he's flirted with Catalonian separatism in the past, which probably didn't help.
He's faced and beaten the same guys who race there at other races. He's tested often because of his skimo racing.
jogfest wrote:
I only go by real race results:
90 seconds slower than high school children
chicked x 10
way slower than he claims for training
beaten by a dozen Norwegian sub-elites
Kilian Jornet: It is true that he appears to be maxed out completely at three minutes per kilometer and cannot go faster. This raises the question about his claims that he can run 10 km in sub 30 in training? I’m sitting on the fence regarding KJ -I’m not sure whether he’s the biggest fraud in history or genuine honest. I think SC can reveal more about the man because he has often lived and raced against him in different settings.
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