Lockdowns in Liverpool:
A shortage in ICU beds in Liverpool was making the news yesterday. Here’s the Times.
Intensive care units at Liverpool’s main hospitals are at 95% capacity as a rebellion against the lockdown by local businesses grows.
Sources have told the Times that the number of COVID-19 patients across all beds is expected to surpass its April peak in the next seven to 10 days.
About half of the intensive care beds across the Liverpool University Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust have been taken by patients with the virus, according to the Financial Times.
However, what they don’t mention is that Liverpool ICUs are almost always operating at close to capacity during the autumn and winter. A reader dug these stats out from 2018 and 2019 from the Department of Health website:
https://lockdownsceptics.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Liverpool-hospitals.jpg
The underlying problem here is surely that our “world-beating” NHS has only 6.6 ICU beds per 100,000 people. That compares to 38.7 in Germany, 29.4 in the US and 11.6 in France. Maybe some of the obscene sums spent dealing with this confected crisis should go on that.
From :
https://lockdownsceptics.org/2020/10/15/latest-news-163/#comments
World Health Organization Appeals to World Leaders: STOP USING LOCKDOWNS- MAKES POOR PEOPLE POORER
Report Thread
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From link in previous post. Again, anyone who believes these lockdowns are being driven by a virus are in complete denial of reality.
A reader who lives in Portugal has written to tell us of his sadness at what has become of his country. It sounds wearily familiar.
Like most of the rest of the world, Portugal had a lockdown period. In our case, it went from March 18th to May 4th. Also, like in many other countries, we were initially told it would be just two weeks to “flatten the curve”, which extended to six due to a delay in reporting cases and deaths which was perceived as a rise. In late April, a Portuguese researcher working in Norway called André Dias wrote an open letter to the President of the Republic (who is the Chief of State, while the Prime Minister is the Chief of Government), saying the lethality of Covid had been extremely exaggerated by Imperial College and that it would be safe to return to normal with no restrictions.
Nevertheless, after lockdown (which we prefer to call the “state of emergency”), we went into a “state of calamity” and the PM told us it would be impossible to return to the old normal without a vaccine. It is unconstitutional for the PM to mandate anything during the state of calamity, but he did so anyway. Specifically, while in some other countries, wearing masks only became mandatory several weeks or months after the lockdown ended, it’s been mandatory here in closed public spaces since the end of lockdown (though it wasn’t mandatory anywhere during lockdown). Also, the PM kept schools closed for the remainder of the 2019/2020 school year and opened more establishments every two weeks. Large parties became illegal, though a far-Leftist celebration called “festa do Avante” still took place in early September.
In the beginning of May, it was still considered a “civic duty” to stay at home. In mid-May, cases and deaths went down considerably, which put most people in high spirits. This would be short-lived, however, since they began testing asymptomatic people in late May. As you can imagine, we began having hundreds more “cases” (which, of course, are only positive tests), especially in Lisbon. Once again, there were people saying we had ended lockdown too soon, that the general public wasn’t following the rules and that new restrictions had to be introduced. We pretty much stopped talking about deaths and started talking about cases. In July, it became mandatory in the island of Madeira to wear masks even outdoors. However, at the time, the PM said we couldn’t afford a new lockdown. Moreover, we went from a state of calamity to the less serious “state of alert”. Nevertheless, it became forbidden to sell alcohol in certain establishments, and cafés (though not restaurants) had to close at 8pm. Also, in response to several illegal private parties, the Government began forbidding large gatherings more and more.
For the record, the Portuguese have a mixed relationship with masks. Half wear them outdoors and the other half don’t. I’ve seen shop owners removing their masks indoors while not attending customers. I believe it’s mandatory for kids after pre-school to wear masks indoors.
Personally, while I’m not afraid of masks, I hate wearing them, both because I can’t breathe very well with them on and because they’ve been the most persistent symbol of the “new normal”.
Now, we come to today, which is why I’m writing this. After a count of more than 2,000 daily “cases”, we have gone back to a state of calamity. Fines for breaking the rules are to become heavier than ever, gatherings can only be of five people instead of 10, masks are to become mandatory outdoors and the PM has proposed it should be mandatory for employees, students, etc. to install an app called StayawayCovid on their phones. Worse than anything, though, is that the PM has said it’s possible we will have a second lockdown after all, at least as a last resort. We haven’t closed any establishment but, as has happened elsewhere, medical consultations are now done mostly (though not yet exclusively) by phone, with cancer and cardiovascular patients pretty much abandoned for the sake of potential new Covid hospitalisations. Surgeries have been cancelled in some hospitals.
Predictably, no one tells us how many have so far died of cancer, cardiovascular diseases or suicide.
I was optimistic that the worst wouldn’t come to Portugal, but this latest bit of news has really dampened my spirits. I know of at least a journalist and a couple of doctors who write opinion pieces calling out the Government and public health authorities, but there’s no organised opposition as far as I know.
Finally, I appeal to the people reading this to resist what’s happening and do whatever they think will work. Personally, I’ve donated to Rocco Galati and Simon Dolan, both of whom are filing lawsuits against the Canadian and English governments respectively. My hope is that, if one or both are successful, it may send a message to other governments. I’ve also signed the Great Barrington Declaration. -
The Ministry of Madness gives us Decree #284- courtesy of chief arbiter of The Singing and Dancing Policeman of California- Emperor Nutjob Newsom:
It’s clearly past time to make George Orwell fiction again.
Gov. Gavin Newsom and his California Department of Public Health issued another “new” set of social distancing guidelines prohibiting gatherings that include more than three households at any time.
The Oct. 9 document, “Mandatory Requirements for All Gatherings,” explains that all private gatherings must limit the number of attendees and are required to be held outside.
“Gatherings are defined as social situations that bring together people from different households at the same time in a single space or place. When people from different households mix, this increases the risk of transmission of COVID-19.”
Despite the The World Health Organization’s special envoy on COVID-19 urging world leaders this week to stop “using lockdowns as your primary control method,” the governor continues to discuss at his daily press conferences the people with “infections,” or “cases.” But these are not “cases;” actual practicing medical doctors refer to “cases” as those in the hospital, in the ICU, or those who have died as a result of COVID-19.
California’s COVID-19 numbers tell the rest of the story:
16,191,341 COVID-19 tests given
850,028 people tested positive for COVID-19
15,341,313 people tested negative for COVID-19
16,572 deaths attributed to COVID-19
California’s total population is 39,512,000 million
California has a 0.04% mortality rate for COVID.
Unsure of the details telling Californians just how to gather with friends?
The CDPH explains:
Keep it short
Gatherings should be two hours or less. The longer the duration, the risk of transmission increases.
Rules for Singing, Chanting, and Shouting at Outdoor Gatherings
Singing, chanting, shouting, and physical exertion significantly increases the risk of COVID-19 transmission because these activities increase the release of respiratory droplets and fine aerosols into the air. Because of this, singing, chanting, and shouting are strongly discouraged, but if they occur, the following rules and recommendations apply:
All people who are singing or chanting should wear a face covering at all times while singing or chanting, including anyone who is leading a song or chant. Because these activities pose a very high risk of COVID-19 transmission, face coverings are essential to reduce the spread of respiratory droplets and fine aerosols;
People who are singing, shouting, chanting, or exercising are strongly encouraged to maintain physical distancing beyond 6 feet to further reduce risk.
People who are singing or chanting are strongly encouraged to do so quietly (at or below the volume of a normal speaking voice).
Instrumental music is allowed as long as the musicians maintain at least 6-foot physical distancing. Musicians must be from one of the three households. Playing of wind instruments (any instrument played by the mouth, such as a trumpet or clarinet) is strongly discouraged.
Be sure to stay away from those dreaded wind instruments. As for requiring gatherings two hours or less because “the longer the duration, the risk of transmission increases,” this is totally arbitrary. And do riots and protests count as “gatherings?” Should they also be limited to “three families, two hours or less, no singing, no shouting?”
Gov. Newsom’s rules are sounding eerily like a chapter out of George Orwell’s Animal Farm: “All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.”
As California Globe reported last week, more than 30,000 medical practitioners and medical & public health scientists recently released a letter called the Great Barrington Declaration, telling politicians who continue to keep people in lockdown, they are causing more health issues and deaths than COVID-19:
“Current lockdown policies are producing devastating effects on short and long-term public health.”
“Schools and universities should be open for in-person teaching. Extracurricular activities, such as sports, should be resumed. Young low-risk adults should work normally, rather than from home. Restaurants and other businesses should open. Arts, music, sport and other cultural activities should resume. People who are more at risk may participate if they wish, while society as a whole enjoys the protection conferred upon the vulnerable by those who have built up herd immunity.”
The most compassionate approach that balances the risks and benefits of reaching herd immunity, is to allow those who are at minimal risk of death to live their lives normally to build up immunity to the virus through natural infection, while better protecting those who are at highest risk. We call this Focused Protection.”
While Gov. Newsom continues to convolute and extend the state’s COVID guidelines, killing off more businesses, the Great Barrington Declaration doctors say he is also putting more of the state’s residents “at risk for lower childhood vaccination rates, worsening cardiovascular disease outcomes, fewer cancer screenings and deteriorating mental health – leading to greater excess mortality in years to come, with the working class and younger members of society carrying the heaviest burden. Keeping students out of school is a grave injustice.”
https://californiaglobe.com/section-2/gov-newsom-limits-gatherings-to-three-families-two-hours-or-less-no-singing/ -
Allen53 wrote:
https://twitter.com/therealarod1984/status/1316798742679478272
Another 10 posts today, Allen.
Still waiting on you to tell me what you have done for these struggling populations...
Any tangible thing? Spam posting letsrun doesn't count.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NP0mQeLWCCo -
Well then, you should stop doing it.
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It's kind of a puzzle why anyone bothers to debate these threads. It's trying to have a dialogue with madness. No argument can prise insanity from its obsessive deluded attachment. But the real world will continue despite the din emanating from the asylum.
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Then why do you posts on these Covid threads? I've never seen any civil debate that you engage in with Allen53 - it's mostly ad hominem attacks and contempt for the info he posts. His research is notable - he's posting info & studies that challenge the narrative that is shoved in our faces by the government. Do you think the MSM is going to show & open up for discussion any of those studies that Allen53 has found? Fat chance - Lol. That might get people to actually start to critically think and question the government's narrative. That's a threat to the government and they don't like to lose control - that's why there are paid trolls that surveil discussion forums looking to disrupt & suppress info & studies that challengs the narrative. The U.S. Government is simply ruling by oppression using the coronavirus leverage to control people through fear & hysteria.
You mentioned "madness?" Madness is what is going on in the U.S. with the violation of people's Constitution rights with unlawful arrests of not wearing masks! An Ohio women watching her son's football game at an outdoor middle-school stadium is roughed-up and TASED for refusing to wear a mask when she would fall under the asthma exemption from the governor's own statewide mask mandate exemptions. In another case, several churchgoers in Idaho are arrested for not wearing a mask and singing! WTH?
https://youtu.be/IrU4lX17FLg
https://youtu.be/H6S17AEci08 -
Thanks for making my point for me.
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Lead Foil Hat wrote:
So what about the people that have actual jobs and are at work all day? What about the children that go to school all day? Just because some people are well off enough to work at home all day does not mean others should not be questioning the pointless use of masks among healthy people, and particularly for children. Kids should not be wearing mask at school for many many reasons, and there is not a single science based reason to force them to wear them. Actually there is not a single science based reason to make most healthy people wear them at all anywhere. There is no reason and people should not be required to wear them all day just so they can support their families. It is insane, and we are all doing the bidding now of insane, mentally ill, stupid bullies....that is the only fact not up for debate amongst everyone except the insane, mentally ill, and stupid bullies pushing all of this nonsense. If businesses want to require masks, that is their choice. If private schools want to require masks that is their choice. If students or teachers want to go to public schools wearing masks that is there choice, but forcing children to do something to their detriment is child abuse and it should be stopped and the morons pushing it should be sued unless they can provide evidence to justify the abuse to our children.
So many questions.
The primary recommendation is to avoid contact and keep your distance from others.
Masks are only required when you cannot social distance.
There is a reason -- to limit the spread of the virus.
People at work all day should wear a mask when they cannot social distance.
Children at school all day should wear a mask when they cannot social distance.
I asked my daughter if she can breath with a mask on, and she said yes.
You say no single science based reason for not wearing masks, but this ignores the science based reasons that guided the mask wearing recommendations, when you cannot social distance.
The recommendation to wear masks only applies to medical workers and the infected.
It is not necessary that healthy people not shedding virus wear masks to avoid spreading the virus.
Yet asymptomatic and pre-symptomatic people shedding virus should wear a mask to prevent the uncontrolled spread of the virus.
You say words like child abuse, insane, mentally ill, stupid bullies, and many, many reasons -- these seem to be more drama than fact. -
Let's dig deeper into this wrote:
Then why do you posts on these Covid threads? I've never seen any civil debate that you engage in with Allen53 - it's mostly ad hominem attacks and contempt for the info he posts. His research is notable - he's posting info & studies that challenge the narrative that is shoved in our faces by the government. Do you think the MSM is going to show & open up for discussion any of those studies that Allen53 has found? Fat chance - Lol. That might get people to actually start to critically think and question the government's narrative. That's a threat to the government and they don't like to lose control - that's why there are paid trolls that surveil discussion forums looking to disrupt & suppress info & studies that challengs the narrative. The U.S. Government is simply ruling by oppression using the coronavirus leverage to control people through fear & hysteria.
You mentioned "madness?" Madness is what is going on in the U.S. with the violation of people's Constitution rights with unlawful arrests of not wearing masks! An Ohio women watching her son's football game at an outdoor middle-school stadium is roughed-up and TASED for refusing to wear a mask when she would fall under the asthma exemption from the governor's own statewide mask mandate exemptions. In another case, several churchgoers in Idaho are arrested for not wearing a mask and singing! WTH?
I have engaged civilly without ad hominem attack.
He and you and others want to falsely paint Dems and liberals as actually in favor of lockdowns as a primary means of control, so you can perpetuate the myth that all of their woes are the fault of the Dems and liberals and lockdowns.
The undeniable fact is that we are in the middle of a global pandemic of a very contagious disease which can be lethal -- this unavoidably has health and economic consequences for society at large.
Ignoring this and carrying out life as usual will not restore the economy, and will drive the case counts higher, deaths from COVID higher, deaths from other causes higher (because hospitals and doctors are treating COVID), saturating hospital capacity and medical staff, while still disrupting the economy because workers are sick.
You use the term MSM with negative connotation, and then, without any shame, show a clip from Tucker Carlson, as if he were ever more truthful than MSM.
For the best advice on how to control the spread of disease, people shouldn't be listening to either MSM or Tucker Carlson -- the people of the United States elected a national leader who is responsible for dealing with national threats to public safety and to the economy. We should be supporting and trusting agencies like the CDC and depending on their recommendations, rather than posting the google results of "masks cause brain fog" and calling that "research".
That woman was not very smart to resist arrest in a country that respects law and order. She was criminally trespassing for failing to leave when asked by an agent of law enforcement. At least she should be grateful that she didn't get a knee to the neck while handcuffed.
Research shows that singing and talking can also transmit the virus -- which explains why churches and choirs are particularly fertile sources for super-spreading.
If members of the public wants to disregard law and order in the name of civil disobedience, they should be prepared to be arrested for violating the law. -
You're trolling me like you do all the time during the doping debates. Lol. I've already told you the only state that did not lockdown at all back in the spring was South Dakota (Republican Govenor Noem). All Dem states have a state-wide mask mandate. Only a few Republican states do. Some Dem states (e.g. NY) have already started some isolated lockdowns. The Dem govenor of my state is in a tizzy about raising cases and has his finger on the trigger for rollback lockdowns. ? The Leftist governor of CA is going to ban gatherings of too many families together in one place as well as singing! Lol. Go verify this - are these Republican governors?
rekrunner wrote:
I have engaged civilly without ad hominem attack.
He and you and others want to falsely paint Dems and liberals as actually in favor of lockdowns as a primary means of control, so you can perpetuate the myth that all of their woes are the fault of the Dems and liberals and lockdowns.
The undeniable fact is that we are in the middle of a global pandemic of a very contagious disease which can be lethal -- this unavoidably has health and economic consequences for society at large.
Ignoring this and carrying out life as usual will not restore the economy, and will drive the case counts higher, deaths from COVID higher, deaths from other causes higher (because hospitals and doctors are treating COVID), saturating hospital capacity and medical staff, while still disrupting the economy because workers are sick.
I'll stand corrected by clarifying the MSM "Dem" outlets as CNN, NY Times, Wash Post, etc. FOX news is MSM but leans right.
rekrunner wrote:
You use the term MSM with negative connotation, and then, without any shame, show a clip from Tucker Carlson, as if he were ever more truthful than MSM.
For the best advice on how to control the spread of disease, people shouldn't be listening to either MSM or Tucker Carlson -- the people of the United States elected a national leader who is responsible for dealing with national threats to public safety and to the economy. We should be supporting and trusting agencies like the CDC and depending on their recommendations, rather than posting the google results of "masks cause brain fog" and calling that "research".
"Trusting agencies like the CDC? " Really?
CDC: 85% of COVID-19 patients report ‘always’ or ‘often’ wearing a mask:
https://jordanschachtel.substack.com/p/cdc-85-of-covid-19-patients-report
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6936a5.htm
Try this on for size:
World renowned infectious disease epidemiologist Dr. Sunetra Gupta, Professor of Theoretical Epidemiology at Oxford:
https://youtu.be/waNZOT2ItT0
Supports the strategy of herd immunity. States masks should be voluntary.
https://www.iwf.org/2020/09/23/an-oxford-professor-argues-for-maskless-reopening-of-schools/
"Gupta, 55, says that unless you are elderly or have underlying conditions, there is no need for a mask. She teaches without one."
☝️ So, don't even attempt to discredit her like you do with Schumacher all the time.
Just read the Logan, OH mask mandate language, which basically parallels the state-wide mandate. They're exemptions for medical or psychological reasons. Masks outdoors are exempt except in cases where you can't maintain 6 foot social distancing measures with others not of your family household. The Officer should be familiar with the mask mandate he's expected to enforce. If not, he could have called his supervisor for guidance. She can't be trespassing because she's at a place of public accommodation (public school stadium) and is exempted from wearing a mask based solely on language of the exemptions (she told the officer she had asthma).
rekrunner wrote:
That woman was not very smart to resist arrest in a country that respects law and order. She was criminally trespassing for failing to leave when asked by an agent of law enforcement. At least she should be grateful that she didn't get a knee to the neck while handcuffed.
https://www.loganutah.org/covid-19/mask_mandate.php -
Correction: Logan, OHIO:
https://loganhealth.org/covid-19/ -
Any Panic Porn zealots up for debating the data and science?
Crucial Viral Update 15th Oct: Why are the Media Undermining Science and Data???
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPmWYFlUK54&ab_channel=IvorCummins -
Let's dig deeper into this wrote:
You're trolling me like you do all the time during the doping debates. Lol. I've already told you the only state that did not lockdown at all back in the spring was South Dakota (Republican Govenor Noem). All Dem states have a state-wide mask mandate. Only a few Republican states do. Some Dem states (e.g. NY) have already started some isolated lockdowns. The Dem govenor of my state is in a tizzy about raising cases and has his finger on the trigger for rollback lockdowns. The Leftist governor of CA is going to ban gatherings of too many families together in one place as well as singing! Lol. Go verify this - are these Republican governors?
...
I'll stand corrected by clarifying the MSM "Dem" outlets as CNN, NY Times, Wash Post, etc. FOX news is MSM but leans right.
"Trusting agencies like the CDC? " Really?
CDC: 85% of COVID-19 patients report ‘always’ or ‘often’ wearing a mask:
Try this on for size:
World renowned infectious disease epidemiologist Dr. Sunetra Gupta, Professor of Theoretical Epidemiology at Oxford:
Supports the strategy of herd immunity. States masks should be voluntary.
"Gupta, 55, says that unless you are elderly or have underlying conditions, there is no need for a mask. She teaches without one."
So, don't even attempt to discredit her like you do with Schumacher all the time.
...
Just read the Logan, OH mask mandate language, which basically parallels the state-wide mandate. They're exemptions for medical or psychological reasons. Masks outdoors are exempt except in cases where you can't maintain 6 foot social distancing measures with others not of your family household. The Officer should be familiar with the mask mandate he's expected to enforce. If not, he could have called his supervisor for guidance. She can't be trespassing because she's at a place of public accommodation (public school stadium) and is exempted from wearing a mask based solely on language of the exemptions (she told the officer she had asthma).
If "trolling like you do all the time" means "hardly ever", then I would consider that an accurate statement.
None of your Democratic/Republican distinctions matter, because COVID infection and protection is not political.
It's a shame that this has been politicized, and we are talking about Republicans versus Democrats.
Ideally, the US federal government should have created and supported national guidelines and recommendations, and we wouldn't be having this conversation about the different levels of compliance based on political party.
For MSM and Fox News, you should further make a distinction between the News division, and the Entertainment division. The opinions of the stars of entertainment department have nothing to do with news in a professional sense.
Yes we should trust the CDC -- your example only highlights the danger of trying to exercise "critical thinking" on your own with google research.
It doesn't matter how many COVID patients report wearing masks. The mask recommendations are intended to prevent the infected from giving the virus to others, not protect the wearer from getting the virus. The interesting statistic would be if the one who gave the virus to the COVID patient was wearing a mask, and how many others did the mask wearing COVID patients transmit the virus to, compared to non-mask wearing COVID patients.
This is why you should not look for advice and not trust sources like "jordanschactel" at "substack.com". You should look for vetted sources with a little more credibility.
You misunderstand how I treat anti-doping experts like Schumacher. I have no doubt he is qualified to give expert opinions in his domain of expertise. But if you over-interpret an opinion that is outside his domain of expertise, my criticism is directed at you -- not Schumacher. Scientists like Schumacher are the first ones to say their research should not be extended to elite performance.
Regarding Dr. Sunetra Gupta, it is not unusual to find experts disagreeing with each other on details and strategy. Is this professor of University of Oxford working for the CDC or the WHO, or otherwise in charge of determining policy?
You should research the fallacy of "Appeal to Authority" to understand why a single opinion even from an expert, is insufficient, even if you introduce her as "world renowned" and use italics and bold. If her ideas contradict consensus, then it needs more critical thinking rather than blind acceptance.
For the avoidance of doubt, this criticism is directed at you, not world renowned expert Dr. Sunetra Gupta's opinion or credentials.
Regarding the lady in Ohio, the mask mandate language does not matter. She was asked to leave by law enforcement and resisted arrest. That is not very smart even if she is innocent. Police have beaten and shot and killed innocent suspects for that. She's lucky she was only tased. Her behavior might be expected in a lawless society, but not in a nation like the USA that respects law and order. -
Armstronglivs wrote:
It's kind of a puzzle why anyone bothers to debate these threads. It's trying to have a dialogue with madness. No argument can prise insanity from its obsessive deluded attachment. But the real world will continue despite the din emanating from the asylum.
Maybe you mistakenly pointing the finger at everyone else, calling them stupid, when you are really just confused and ashamed at your own stupidity? If you need to talk to someone about how inadequate you feel every day, please speak up as there are many resources out there for people with problems such as yours.
