The answer to the original question is because conditions were not more favorable at the time he ran 9.6-eligible efforts.
The answer to the original question is because conditions were not more favorable at the time he ran 9.6-eligible efforts.
Sprintgeezer wrote:
Btw I would put Greene 6th, even though he sucked.
In terms of competitor, among those 6 guys:
1- Dolt, Flake, Gatlin, Gay, Greene in 5-way tie
6- Powell
Among all sprinters, he’s not even in the top 1,000,000.
Funny with my list, though—at their best I would take Flake over Gay every time. At their best, what would the average finishing order be after a series of, say, 10 races?
1- Dolt
2- Flake
3- Gatlin
4- Gay
5-Greene
6- Powell
Flake was really, really good, in a deep way. He also semi-jogged 9.8 in London, IIRC, and eased up many times. He had a complete peak race, and a desire to win. IMO he is the modern-day BJ, just a shade behind Dolt but would beat everybody else.
Yes I know he got beaten at times, but at his peak he was nothing short of amazing. The 200m WR-holder without RT. Think about that—he ran it faster than Dolt. Boss.
Largely agree with the things you say throughout, though I put Gay above Blake, and I'm not so anti-Greene. But, those are nuanced views and, and as a whole, I agree with your assessments.
I don't typically give Blake his due because he fizzled so fast. Gay was what he was from '07 to at least '10. Blake was what we see his peak for....2011 and 2012? And mostly it's 2012. Just so flash in the pan-ish.
But his 100/200 PRs are essentuially undebatably good, to say the least. Drug implications aside.
Yeah he’s under-rated IMO.
He was so solid. Every phase of his race was excellent, if not the single absolute best:
Blocks—beaten by CC, Powell, Gatlin, Greene, BJ
Early accel—beaten by CC, Powell, Gatlin, Greene, BJ
Middle accel—beaten by Dolt, Powell, CC, BJ
Late accel/transition—beaten by Dolt, equalled by Gay and Greene
Vmax--beaten by Dolt, equalled by Gay
Maintenance—equalled by Dolt, Gay, Greene, maybe Gatlin
You could maybe say the same sort of thing about Powell, ok—but Flake had the competitive drive that Powell lacked.
I also think he’s been under-rated since coming back from injury. He still fared well against many of the best of all-time, made big finals, finished top-5, and often in an SB when it counted.
Really, his 9.69 was exemplary, like Powell’s 9.72
oh look, the moran goalpost mover is back with novels
the national socialist from typoistan that types east instead of easy
moran, I wasn't talking about his mental lapses. the topic here is his speed and 9.6x capability, which is unquestionable
thanks for submitting to me and admitting that tyson was indeed slower. 'marginally' lol yeah it's all marginal in sprints, moran. and he got dragged to it by bolt while powell was the one dragging in his 9.72
so, I told you to find relevant facts and you make up another nonsense theory about tg? he may have won in lausanne, but only cause powell would give up to him again, not by fast time
glad I got you doing research, but you stiol fail. your imaginary scenario should be including the fact that gay wasn't even near that kind of shape at any point in 2008 ? numpty
'whaa whaaaaaa fanbois are crazy whaaaa'... proceeds to obsess and write novels as antifanboi cause that's 100% different. completely normal
your boring copypasta tripe is stroke inducing, stripteaser
their names are bolt and blake, moran stripteaser
mr. nice guy wrote:
oh look, the moran goalpost mover is back with novels
the national socialist from typoistan that types east instead of easy
moran, I wasn't talking about his mental lapses. the topic here is his speed and 9.6x capability, which is unquestionable
thanks for submitting to me and admitting that tyson was indeed slower. 'marginally' lol yeah it's all marginal in sprints, moran. and he got dragged to it by bolt while powell was the one dragging in his 9.72
so, I told you to find relevant facts and you make up another nonsense theory about tg? he may have won in lausanne, but only cause powell would give up to him again, not by fast time
glad I got you doing research, but you stiol fail. your imaginary scenario should be including the fact that gay wasn't even near that kind of shape at any point in 2008 ? numpty
'whaa whaaaaaa fanbois are crazy whaaaa'... proceeds to obsess and write novels as antifanboi cause that's 100% different. completely normal
Look up the term "sophmoric" and "ad hominem".
Gay was the better 100m sprinter. Powell was barely top 10 all-time, if that. You dont "mentally lapse" out of medal contentions. You lose. He lost. He couldn't beat Gay. Like...ever.
You're not a fanboy, you're a fanboi.
term? don't you mean terms?
I wasn't adhomineming you, poor victim. I spit facts in your face and mocked you for your nonsense. deservedly. stop whining! apologize for defaming me!
powell is the 3rd fastest man ever (close 2nd in relays) with a 4th best official time only cause of wind. facts
you keep trying to make gay faster than him cause he won slower races. that's nonsensical and off topic. you're making up random 'arguments' not related to topic because losing hurts your fragile ego and you're so narcissistic as to desperately try and create an appearance of not losing. pathetic
mr. nice guy wrote:
term? don't you mean terms?
I wasn't adhomineming you, poor victim. I spit facts in your face and mocked you for your nonsense. deservedly. stop whining! apologize for defaming me!
powell is the 3rd fastest man ever (close 2nd in relays) with a 4th best official time only cause of wind. facts
you keep trying to make gay faster than him cause he won slower races. that's nonsensical and off topic. you're making up random 'arguments' not related to topic because losing hurts your fragile ego and you're so narcissistic as to desperately try and create an appearance of not losing. pathetic
Dude. You lose ANY POSSIBLE merit by referencing relay splits again.
pfffft you're so pathetic 'lose any merrit cause of' is a cheetofingered neckbeard statement for when you have nothing of merit, which is 100% you throughout the whole thread, meritless numpty
powell only lost to top3 ever, stripteaser
he was at his best racing people like dix. that's a very good challenger almost on the level of carlitto the doper and ben. there's no guarantee he'd lose to these slower than him fellas. now and then sure, but not consistently. carlitto winning finals with 9.99 lol. without fear powell ain't getting beat
What are you even talking about?
Gay is faster. Actually is the strictest of terms, Gay is faster. 9.71 is actually FASTER than 9.72. Find my an Asafa 10m split that can match Gays .81/.82s from his 9.71.
You yourself, in the beginning of this thread when you decided you wanted to get weird with me, said Powell did not have the SE that Gay had, and Gay got to his 1.63 20 meter split in thr 60 to 80 mark. There's no way that Powell could have matched Gays peak velocity in Berlin during his 9.72 from Lausanne.
LITERALLY Gay is faster.
You:
RelAY SpLIts! NeCk bEArds! MoRAN!!! sPElliNg ERrorS. THIs isN't Ad HomINem aTTackiNg, LOseR wHo LivEs in BasEMenT!!! STop WhInnIng and WAAAAAA, apologize to meeeeee.
mr. nice guy wrote:
powell only lost to top3 ever, stripteaser
he was at his best racing people like dix. that's a very good challenger almost on the level of carlitto the doper and ben. there's no guarantee he'd lose to these slower than him fellas. now and then sure, but not consistently. carlitto winning finals with 9.99 lol. without fear powell ain't getting beat
Derrick Atkins called again.
Because the clock never read less than 9.7000 seconds when he covered that 100 meters, that is why.
Mr. Pedantic wrote:
Here's a better question that no one seems to be asking:
Why are there really weird fanboy type people oddly message board warrior-like about individual sprinters from the past who were neither particularly charismatic, nor all that consequential-in hindsight-. On this board (a distance based website to boot), every once in a while, someone randomly posts hyperbolically about:
Ben Johnson
Donovan Bailey
Michael Johnson
Maybe to a lesser degree Bob Hayes
And now....Asafa Powell.
All Powell ever seemed to do was get walked down by Gay and Bolt. It happened CONSTANTLY, and not just in championship finals. If the argument is that he had impeccable speed endurance, then that's either the weird fanboy 'ish I am talking about, or Gay and Bolt's "SE" were just that historically good , much to to Powells poor luck (while that's probably true -drug fueled or not-, I would contend that other guys like Blake and Atkins also less dramatically walked down Powell on occasion in the last 40 meters, too).
Powell seemed to be era defining when he started to churn out low 9.8s, and then high 9.7s, with near regular consistency. But in hindsight he was really just a bridge between the Greene era and the Gay/Bolt era and he isn't really all the defining. The only reason he could have been capable of a 9.6x is because he would have been pulled through it in the wake of Bolt and Gay (and perhaps Blake), not because he was -in and of himself- that much of a stand out in his OWN era.
This is probably the weirdest assessment of one of fastest sprinters to ever live that I've ever seen. Calling Powell a bridge, inconsequential or not much of a stand out is dumb at best. Bolt literally looked up to Powell and it was primarily because of Powell's performances. Bolt wanted to run the 100m BECAUSE of Powell. Powell is the reason the reason Jamaican sprinting became relevant on the men's side seeing as how in 04, 05, 06, 07 Powell was either the best 100m in the world or the best 100m in Jamaica. Bolt took over and added to that when the prime of their careers overlapped.
He also regularly beat Gay until the finals in Osaka and that was in a season where Powell came off of 1 or 2 injuries which is why his season best going into Osaka was only 9.90. He ran that only a week or so before the championships. Tyson had already run 9.84 and 19.6 or 19.7 that season and was clearly the better sprinter that year up to that point. Powell being the world record holder at the time wasn't going to magically get him in better shape than Tyson. It's not an excuse for him giving up in the race, however the context behind that race along with various other match ups are far more nuanced than him simply getting run down. By the time Powell and Gay raced again, Gay had come into his own and was also faster than Powell who continued to deal with various injuries.
As far as Powell being capable of 9.6, I think it was obvious that he was. Based off his typical race pattern, I seriously doubt that he would have needed anyone to "pull" him to 9.6. He ran 9.72 with almost 0 wind and no one around him past 40m. Not only that, he had a few pretty glaring technical flaws that if corrected would have not only allowed him to run 9.6 but would have made the 2nd half of his race far more consistent. In general it's pretty foolish to think that he couldn't have ever run 9.6 unless he was pulled there.
I have no idea why you're even bringing up Atkins. He literally beat Powell once and fell off the face the earth afterwards.
Mr. Pedantic wrote:
mr. nice guy wrote:
you're not funny so try harder, trollito. also try harder to post at least 1 relevant fact instead of goofing, whining and shyttalking cause so far so easy for me
"If you're coming out of woodwork you must be a worm or insect"
-you
Thats.....that's so far so east for you, huh?
Ok....fine.
Powell's Lusanne 9.72 converts to 9.74 basic.
Gay's Berlin 9.71 converts to 9.75 basic.
Negligible difference. What, you want to call this a clear Powell "win"? Ok, sure. Then consider the following:
In Gay's Berlin 9.71 (taking second to Bolt's 9.58, of course), Powell was .13 behind and finished in 9.84. That converts to a a 9.88, by the way.
Powell was coming off of a serious ankle injury that year and hadn't run well until the championship. Considering the season that both Bolt and Gay had that year, it was arguably Powell's best performance relatively speaking.
Gays next best wind conversion 100m result is a 9.77 with a +0.4 wind reading where he took first place on 7/10/2009. It converts to a 9.79. Guess who he beat in that race? Powell, who finished 2nd in 9.88.
See above. Powell wasn't beating Gay or Bolt in 09. He was far too behind because of the previous injury and the fact that he was able to run 9.8 at all was a positive for both he and his coach.
Powell's next best wind conversion is a 9.83 in Bruxelles that was run into a -1.3 wind which DOES convert to a 9.75. You can use that as a rebuttal, if you like. The problem is, outside of this Bruxelles wind anomaly (it's Bolt's only sub 9.7 wind conversion outside of a championship final, as his 9.77 win converts to 9.69 basic), Powell and Gay are damn near identical in wind conversions. For example, Powell went 9.78 in Reiti in still conditions once, but Gay went 9.79 with a +0.1, as well. Based on the altitudes, those are both 9.79 basic conversions.
The difference maker is their consistency beyond their top 2 or 3 times. Powell has run 9.8 or faster every year from 2004 to 2015. From 2006 to 2012 Gay ran 9.8 or faster. That's 7 season to 12. Both guys had a 4 year run where they ran 9.7 however Powell was more consistent and did it more often with less wind. 2010 was the only season where Gay ran multiple 9.7's with 1.0 wind or less. The total number is 6 to 4 with all 3 of Tyson's being in the 2010 season.
The difference of course being, when they actually raced...Gay won. In one offs, in champ finals....Gay BEAT Powell. To me, that makes his .01 9.74 top coversion edge and his 9.75 second conversion moot.
If you're going to take Powells 9.72 and propose a +2.0 equivalent of 9.64, then I theorize that if Gay was in that race he would have run at least 9.70 and thus been capable of a 9.62 in a +2.0. Why do I get to say that?
That actually makes no sense because Tyson hadn't shown that he was capable of running anything close to that up to that point. When Powell ran 9.72, it would have been tough for Bolt to beat him let alone Tyson who wasn't yet capable of running faster than 9.72 at that time. Powell had at least already run 9.74 and 9.78 prior to the 9.72. Tyson, even in 2008 prior to his injury had yet to run under 9.84 without a significant wind. Tyson didn't start beating Powell until he was capable of doing it. It wasn't a default situation where Tyson vs Powell equaled a Tyson win.
Cause in races where Powell was against him, Gay beat him. Osaka 2007. Berlin 2009. Stockholm 2009. Roma 2010. London 2012. That's why. All I can find in Powell's favor is him beating Gay once in Bruxelles in 2009. As far as I can tell, that's a 1-5 record against Gay; maybe not a complete record, but it's not like there are four or five races out there in there either where he beat gay that I dont know about.
As I alluded to before, there's 3 races in 2006 alone where Powell beat Gay. As I said before, Tyson beat Powell for the first time in Osaka. Tyson didn't race him again after Osaka and I don't believe they raced in 2008 before Tyson got injured. In 2009 when they matched up again in Berlin, Powell was coming off of an injury and Tyson was having the best season of his career. Tyson beating Powell that year(09) should have been expected.
And we already know Gay was capable of mid 9.7 basic results (Berlin 2009), AND running low 9.7x and breaking 9.7 (Shanghai 2009) regardless of wind benefits (Eugene 2008) is on the record. You put Gay in a Powell Reiti or that Lusanne race where Powell goes 9.72, and you hVe no reason to assume Gay wouldn't go 9.70/9.65 other than it hurts your weird fandom and doesn't fit your cherry picking facts repertoire.
There's actually plenty of reason to believe that Tyson wouldn't have run that fast. Powell ran a significantly better race in those specific races than in some of their previous match ups and Tyson hadn't run faster than that in his very best race up til that point. So i'm not sure why you're mentioning what Tyson ran in 2009 as proof of what he was capable of when Powell ran those two meets in 2007 and 2008. While I do believe that Tyson was likely capable of 9.7 in 2008, his fastest and best 100m performance was Berlin with 0.9w. Powell ran 9.72 with a 0.2w.
Sprintgeezer wrote:
Yeah he’s under-rated IMO.
He was so solid. Every phase of his race was excellent, if not the single absolute best:
Blocks—beaten by CC, Powell, Gatlin, Greene, BJ
Early accel—beaten by CC, Powell, Gatlin, Greene, BJ
Middle accel—beaten by Dolt, Powell, CC, BJ
Late accel/transition—beaten by Dolt, equalled by Gay and Greene
Vmax--beaten by Dolt, equalled by Gay
Maintenance—equalled by Dolt, Gay, Greene, maybe Gatlin
You could maybe say the same sort of thing about Powell, ok—but Flake had the competitive drive that Powell lacked.
I also think he’s been under-rated since coming back from injury. He still fared well against many of the best of all-time, made big finals, finished top-5, and often in an SB when it counted.
Really, his 9.69 was exemplary, like Powell’s 9.72
I'm not sure if you've been watching the same Blake, but his block start is one of the last things that I would ever list as being among the best. Being physically strong enough to overcome your technical flaws doesn't equal a great start. There are A LOT of people better than him here.
Going by your list, Bolt is better than Blake in every aspect of the race not just the middle and beyond.
Justin Gatlin was also superior to Blake in max velocity he split an .81 in 06, he was faster than gay, but Gay was better at holding his speed .Gatlin falls apart at the end of a race.Maybe Blake was faster but their is no split data from Blake's prime.
Personally I don't think Ben Johnson and Greene would be much faster today maybe .05 sec. Ultra fast mondo tracks are not new. Tracks don't see to matter as much in the sprints all you need is a hard responsive track . We saw Norman run a super fast time on a high school track.
I'll tell you what. You're at least legit. I don't TOTALLY agree with you, but you're not just straight up clouded by fandom or trolldom.
Rather than try address everything, let me just put this here:
Powells Top 5 Basic:
1. 9.74 (Lausanne 2008 <9.72 +0.2>)
2. 9.75 (Bruxelles 2008 <9.83 -1.3>)
3. 9.79 (Rieti 2007 <9.78 +0.0>)
4. 9.81 (Ostrava 2010 <9.83 -0.5>)
**5. 9.82 (Monaco 2008 <9.82 +0.0>)
**Fact is, Powell's record is FILLED with 9.82ish "basics". Pick whichever one you like best and plug it into #5. And this certainly speaks well to your point of consistency, AA.
Gays Top 5 Basic:
1. 9.75 (Berlin 2009 <9.71 +0.9>)
2. 9.75 (London 2010 <9.78 -0.4>)
3. 9.78 (Shanghai 2009 <9.69 +2.0>)
4. 9.79 (Roma 2009 <9.77 +0.4>)
***5. 9.79 (Bruxelles 2010 <9.79 +0.1>)
***Gay also has a log jam around 9.82 "basics", but you're right, it doesn't maybe have quite the volume that Powell's has. He got his elite start later, though, to be fair. I also don't think it'd be hard to argue that, based in basic terms, Gay's quality at the very top is noticeably deeper than Powell's.
I imagine that even including the 2006 Powell wins over Gay, he actually has a losing record against Gay head to head. I forgot that Powell was in that 9.69 Shanghai run, too, back in '09. To me, the head to heads and the championship results are a big part of the convo, though injury circumstances complicates those stories. I'd acknowledge that. But injuries are a part of the game, sadly, and in the end you lose cause you lose. It's worth commenting about it, but no one gets an asterisk because of it.
For the fun of it.
Bolt's Basic Top 5:
1. 9.62 (Berlin 2009 <9.58 +0.9>)
2. 9.69 (Beijing 2008 <9.69 +0.0>)
3. 9.69 (Bruxelles 2008 <9.77 -1.3>)
4. 9.70 (London 2012 <9.63 +1.5>)
5. 9.75 (Roma 2012 <9.76 -0.1>)
He...obviously has sub 9.8 basics even beyond his top 5. Jesus... I'm not gonna dig how deep that goes. I'm too inefficient, and doing this crap on a phone sucks too much, to bother.
you're such a geezer. I'm sick of educating you about wind. tyson got dragged by bolt. oh, I already said that too. you're just trolling, more pathetic than any fanbois can hope to be. gay is LiTeRaLlY slower without wind, dweeb. get over it
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