Mary Cain and Chris Chavez's criticism of Ostrava W1500 commentating

I listened to it again. There certainly is no insult there. I guess it could be considered sexist that he was insinuating that their bodies were more attractive but that is a stretch. I think he was just laughing at sprinters doing what sprinters do.

BLM!! wrote:

Mary Cain unfortunately seems like the next Kara Goucher in training.

Cain is SUPPOSEDLY far more talented than Goucher, Didn't Salazar say about Cain going to the Olympics and World Championships are a given, Think Multiple Gold's and World Records?

I hope Salazar is right, but she hasn't done anything in a few years, not a good sign but she is still young about 24 give or take a year or 2 so there is still hope.

Cain is pathetic now. She's complaining about calling the pacers muscular. She will never be competitive in this sport again so she's trying to remain relevant as an activist.

If she cares about women, she would have spoken out long ago about Caster Semenya being a man in women's races. Or she could speak out against males converting to women then dominating women's sports in high school and college. Speaking out against those things would ACTUALLY help women, but she just wants to be the politically correct police.

Chris Chavez is a race baiting tool. Never liked his pieces. On the other hand, I remember watching it and laughing that the announcer laughed about his comment. Not an eloquent way to describe their bodies in comparison to the rest in the field but whatevs. The crux for me is that you started a thread because Cain said something but you didn’t attack the originator of the comment.

We talked extensively about this in the bonus portion of this week's podcast for subscribers. After vowing I was going to avoid the topic as I didn't want the woke twitter brigade coming after me, I decided I had to address this topic but we put it behind the paywall as I don't needlessly need people trying to cancel me.

I ended up talking about it as the left-leaning Jonathan Gault had the "gall" to objectify Ryan Crouser's body during our podcast. Jon talked about how Crouser was an athletic giant and said he thought he'd be perfect for the NFL based on the way he looked.

I couldn't help myself and had to jump in. "Jonathan, you absolutely CAN'T talk about an athletes body," I said with sarcasm.

The reality is announcers talk about people's bodys/fitness all the time. Often the NFL puts weight restrictions in athletes' contracts.

I agree that a good way to think about this is, "Would the same thing be said in a men's race and women's race?"

I also would normally add a second criteria of, "Does it add anything to the broadcast?"

I might be willing to say that he failed the second part of my test except for the fact that the guy is NOT a track announcer. I literally had been ripping on him all broadcast long as he had nothing track and field related to say. But then I found out he's like a tennis announcer.

So then I realized, he's literally just verbalizing what his eyes are seeing. Imagine trying to fill 2.5 hours about a sport that you know little about. It would be very hard. If you watch the whole race (and not just the clip on twitter), you'll see that he was going through who was in field and then said something about who the pacers were as the gun went off. I imagine he then looked up at his screen and saw the two women with more muscle mass and realized that those two women must be the pacers and said something along those lines.

Was the chuckle great? No. But if it wasn't for the chuckle I'd have no problem with what he said particularly since he's NOT a regular track announcer. I imagine he chuckled as he's normally going to struggle figuring out who is who in a large field but the significant difference in the bodies made things easy for him here.

The reality is the lead woman was a 400 runner and the other is a 400/800. The fact is 400 runners have different body types than 1500 runners. As Jonathan said in the VIP portion of our podcast, Matt Scherer looked different than the 1500 runners he was rabbitting. He's much more jacked.

If an announcer points out that a thrower has a lot more muscle mass than a 10,000 runner, we are now supposed to view them as degenerate?

I criticized this announcer for his job on the meet but do believe Mary Cain's take on this is incorrect. There was nothing mean-spirited or sexual about his comments. He pointed out a fact that they had more muscle mass. There was no value in his comment, all meet long he was just literally describing what his eyes were seeing.

If you really take a step back and think about this objectively, it's the critics of the guy that are the ones perpetuating negative/sexist stereotypes against women. They are the ones putting a negative connotation on having more muscle mass.

For once I mostly agree with Rojo! Matt Scherer perfect example. This was just not that a big deal and as you're saying the announcer was an outsider and pretty much a literalist (if that's the word). Chuckle a bit off-putting, but let's not make a mountain out of a molehill.

rojo wrote:

There was no value in his comment, all meet long he was just literally describing what his eyes were seeing.

If you really take a step back and think about this objectively, it's the critics of the guy that are the ones perpetuating negative/sexist stereotypes against women. They are the ones putting a negative connotation on having more muscle mass.

Good point. I think many women, particularly those who have struggled with weight-body issues in the past subconsciously do this.

The guy was trying to fill air time and said those two women are clearly the rabbits as they are bigger than everyone else. He didn't say which body he preferred and Cain somehow things he's either sexualizing them or being mean to them. I disagree. Cain is the one adding value to his statement.

douglas burke wrote:

As for the Comment she is complaining about, You generally can tell an athletes event based on their build/body composition, Throwers are huge, distance runners are skinny, sprinters are muscular, The Woman sprinters have by far the best backsides in my opinion.

You make a good point. You could take a non-track fan, turn on the tv and have the athletes line up next to each other and they'd very likely be ablet to tell you who was a sprinter, who was a thrower, and who was a distance runner.

I remember when Caster Semenya burst onto the scene a friend told me there 5 or 6 year old daughter looked up at the screen and said, "Why is a boy running against the girls?" Now don't misunderstand me. I'm NOT saying Semenya is a boy. I'm just saying that there are genetic differences in bodies whether we like it or not. We can put our heads in the sand and act like it doesn't exist or we can celebrate those differences.

There isn't anything wrong with having "more-muscle" mass than someone else. IN fact, I know many distance runners who would love to have more musle-mass.

very good post Rojo!

Woke cancel culture,

Once we get this guy banned from commentating, can you please get Jon Mulkeen fired from World Athletics?

https://twitter.com/Statman_Jon/status/1304014882128515072

Oh wait, I love Jon. But seriously, imagine if he had posted this picture with two women.

I'm just pointing out that people talk about body differences all the time. We definitely need to get society to stop thinking thinner is automatically better, particularly for women but that doesn't mean we need to stop pointing out the amazing diversity in body types that exist.

THOUGHTSLEADER wrote:

Yes, Tim Hutchings definitely would commentate on Caster being powerful or even stocky. I had no problem with that. I agree with JWH, going after the minor offenses that are arguable is only going to hurt the overall cause here.

Just this week David Monti, who is definitely on the left, wrote in his recap of the women's only WR that it was set by the "petite" Peres Jepchirchir.

agip wrote:

I'm sensitive to all this, but saying pacers are sprinters and are therefore more muscular than 1500 meter runners...is not sexist or mean or anything like that.

Unfair criticism of the announcers.

The best announcer’s line of the day was, “it looks like Barega is keeping one eye on the clock.”

BLM!! wrote:

Mary Cain unfortunately seems like the next Kara Goucher in training.

Sure seems bitter, doesn’t she?

I actually have no problem with Allie O's critique:

https://twitter.com/allie_ostrander/status/1303426550264549376

Maybe note that they went out too fast for the field, and are doing a cruddy pacemaking job. Note that they are not 1500 runners and might be making rookie pacemaking mistakes often made by sprinters etc. No doubt Cram, Hutchings et al who are track announcers would have noted those sort of things (not to say they also wouldn't note some of the differences in appearances)

THOUGHTSLEADER wrote:

Yes the chuckle had a chauvinistic feel.

Chauvinistic Chuckler. My new name. Thanks.

Chauvinistic Chuckler wrote:

Chauvinistic Chuckler. My new name. Thanks.

Nice ring to it. **Chuckles chauvinistically**

rojo wrote:

Was the chuckle great? No.

I don't really get why people think the chuckle is problematic. Large disparities in body type are amusing when they are placed next to each other. For example, the shot put meme you shared, or the famous Manute Bol-Muggsy Bogues photo. It's not disparaging to say "wow, haha,those women look totally, radically different than the rest of the field. It's the same reason you might chuckle if you saw a person walking a St Bernard and a chihuahua. Juxtaposition of near opposites is a basic form of humor and doesn't imply that either is better or worse.

THOUGHTSLEADER wrote:

I actually have no problem with Allie O's critique:

https://twitter.com/allie_ostrander/status/1303426550264549376

I do. They may not be the best announcers but they’re trying. Announcing isn’t that easy.

By extension, one could say that if your PBs aren’t within spitting distance of world class you shouldn’t be running. Allie’s times definitely fall short. By a lot. Maybe she shouldn’t be running?

Personal best(s)

800 metres: 2:11.30

1500 m:4:14.76

Mile: 4:33.5

5000m: 15:24.74

10,000m: 32:06.71

3000 metres steeplechase: 9:30.85

Dr Yuengling wrote:

rojo wrote:

Was the chuckle great? No.

I don't really get why people think the chuckle is problematic. Large disparities in body type are amusing when they are placed next to each other. For example, the shot put meme you shared, or the famous Manute Bol-Muggsy Bogues photo. It's not disparaging to say "wow, haha,those women look totally, radically different than the rest of the field. It's the same reason you might chuckle if you saw a person walking a St Bernard and a chihuahua. Juxtaposition of near opposites is a basic form of humor and doesn't imply that either is better or worse.

well said.