Can someone explain the difference between tempo and threshold?

I follow tinman’s chart. He has threshold pace about 10-20” faster than tempo. I do longer tempos up to 6 miles and typically do intervals for threshold runs i.e. 4xmile at threshold with short rest. This allows you to get more than 20 min at threshold pace compared to a regular 20’ LT run.

^ this and this:

https://www.coloradotrackclub.com/articles-by-author

Scott C prepared a good series that may help familiarize you with the topic. People use different terminology, slightly different paces, and different time recommendations for training.

from the man himself ... watch and learn.

https://youtu.be/dxJVtPT6rHo

"Tempo" usually refers to a "lactate threshold" run which is 30 seconds slower than race pace so for you 6:00-6:10 pace for 3-5 miles or so. "Threshold" runs are many different types. Aerobic threshold runs are typically 15-20 seconds slower per mile than a tempo "lactate threshold" run and are usually 6-8 miles so for you 6:25-6:30. Anaerobic threshold runs are typically 1 mile repeats at 5k pace. Anaerobic capacity are usually 3k repeats and quicker reps. I recommend that you alternate weeks of 4-6 miles and 20 minute tempos. I would not do both in one week even though I have. However, you can mix them up and do something like this....

Speed workout 1: 2 miles at 6:00-6:10 pace (aerobic threshold) + 6 x 800m at 5k pace

Speed workout Workout 2: 20 minute tempo run at 5:45 pace.

Answer- You need longer tempos and shorter tempos. They serve different functions. Be careful on the shorter tempos. You could run them too fast and it defeats the purpose. But most importantly be patient....it will come. On your true recovery days.....run really really slow, 9:00 pace. Recovery is more important than you know. Doing longer tempos and shorter tempos at an appropriate pace helped me to improve to my p.rs. But more important than the workouts was the recovery. Good luck with your racing!

High School P.RS College P.Rs

5k P.R- 17:13 5000m P.R- 15: 19

4 mile p.r- 23:40 4 mile P.R- 19:48

10k pr- 37:00 10k P.R- 31:24

10 mile- 59:50 10 mile P.R- 53:00

Juice Springsteen wrote:

Sometimes I just abandon using the jargon terms 'tempo, Lactate threshold, Vo2max, marathon pace' and then you have things like Tinman's CV- there are so different names for the same thing. I just fall back on saying the percentage of perceived effort I'm giving; there may be different terms for the same level of effort but 85% is always 85%.

+1

Goonxxxquit2399 wrote:

Title says it all... I’m having trouble determining the difference as when I trained for spring track I’d always do 20 minute tempo runs at threshold pace (jack Daniels) now training for 5k cross country I’m doing 4-6 mile tempos once a week (6:00-6:10 pace) , and obviously I can’t hit the same pace for these longer tempos as I could for the 20 (5:35-5:50 pace) minute tempos.... which is more beneficial for 5k? Also are there any drawbacks to neglecting the 20 minute tempo and going for the longer tempos? Should I do both, and if so how often?

It sort of makes sense you are doing faster tempos for track, which have shorter events, than for 5k cross-country.

I always thought of "tempo" as a synonym for "rhythm".

If you fall into a good rhythm, that is tempo. It can be 1 hour at marathon pace, or Daniels' cruise intervals.

This may found too vague, but in the end, I decided that that didn't really matter. There is nothing special about the words.

I think Daniels (not sure) defined it as 20-minutes at 1-hour race pace, and had other names and tables for other paces and workouts.

"threshold" is even more confusing, as there are many thresholds with different and varying definitions: aerobic threshold, anaerobic threshold, lactate threshold, and ventilation threshold, just to name few common ones. Aerobic threshold is around marathon pace, although I never quite figured out what it was a threshold of, since both slower and faster is still aerobic. The rest are approximately the same 1-hour race pace, but just described different ways. These are also not thresholds per se, and these words are also not special.

Whether you should be doing 20-minute tempos, or 4-6 mile tempos, kind of depends on what you are doing the rest of the week, and what you've done the last few weeks, and what you are going to do the next few weeks.

The most important training for 5k cross country is a 5k time-trial on an undulating cross-country course, near race pace, replicating race conditions. This can vary somewhat, like 4k time trials, if you want to get used to running faster, or 6k, if you want to increase stamina. But before you get to that stage, you need weeks and months of support training to build all the different characteristics of interest, like speed, strength, endurance, and form. What these weeks and months of support training looks like depends on your coach, your strengths and weaknesses and responses to training, and the training strategy you wish to follow, and the feedback you collect necessary to alter that strategy.

If your coach is reasonably successful, and he is good at motivating your team, I wouldn't stress too much about missing 20 minute tempos. Put your faith in your coach, but also get used to reading how different workouts make you feel, and how you respond to training, and how you are progressing/stagnating/regressing during the season. If you have a lot of races during the season, the early ones count as time-trials which count as tuning and preparation for the more important ones later in the season. If you have a long season, I wouldn't worry too much about any workouts in pre-season training, because if you do too much, you will peak mid-season, and burn out when it matters most.

Threshold is slower than tempo.

They are used interchangeably though.

For someone who has a 5:00 race pace for a 5k (15:25~15:30), their tempo should be 15 to 20 seconds slower than race pace.

For example, a 4 mile tempo at 5:15 pace or a 5 mile tempo at 5:20.

Threshold is a usually a longer effort, so the pace is a bit slower.

For example, a 8 mile threshold at 5:35.

Bob schul country wrote:

If I may quote the words of the 5k gold medalist:

"Can someone explain to me what the word temp means because it doesnt explain anything?"

Schul is intentionally being daft as there isn't any term in running which is used universally. If I say I'm doing a long run (or fartlek or intervals or whatever) it might mean a very different thing than the next person means when he uses the same term.

codaayyee wrote:

Threshold is slower than tempo.

They are used interchangeably though.

For someone who has a 5:00 race pace for a 5k (15:25~15:30), their tempo should be 15 to 20 seconds slower than race pace.

For example, a 4 mile tempo at 5:15 pace or a 5 mile tempo at 5:20.

Threshold is a usually a longer effort, so the pace is a bit slower.

For example, a 8 mile threshold at 5:35.

Troll detected

I’m trying to have the most objective answer here, as I don’t think anyone in the thread has hit the nail on the head yet.

Threshold

Lactate Threshold pace, which could be more accurately referred to as Maximum Lactate Steady State (MLSS) is the pace at which the concentration of blood lactate in the body is produced and cleared at the same rate (equilibrium).

Usually, this is around 4mmol of lactate per liter of blood, but the true value should be found by doing a lab test and then one should compare the concentration of blood lactate during a workout to that baseline value determined during a test. This is what the Ingebrigtsen brothers do.

Most people don’t have access to these tools and it’s fairly unwieldy, so approximations are made. Usually, the approximation is 1 hour race pace, which is what Daniels 20 minute tempos do. Other common approximations are 20-30 seconds slower than 5000m race pace, or 1 minute slower than mile race pace. Some people also like to approximate based on heart rate range, but that too varies based on the person and on the conditions.

Tempo

Tempo is a word that is used for all sorts of paces. Sprint coaches will use it for a sort of “relaxed” repeat, distance runners will use it for any long, sustained effort and the definition for distance runners varies widely amongst programs.

Daniels Tempo is typically thought to be around MLSS pace, while Tin Man’s tempos I’ve heard to be defined as at Aerobic Threshold:

Aerobic Threshold

Sometimes called steady state, Marathon Pace, or Tinman Tempo (although, again, with unspecific terminology these vary)

Aerobic Threshold is the pace at which the concentration of blood lactate begins rising above baseline levels. The body is still able to clear the lactate faster than it forms.

Welcoming any corrections or input

These are the definitions that should be used. Tempo is best done at 90% LT. Threshold is slightly above, but not quite VO2 max. Doing tempo at 90% of LT gives you almost the same benefit of threshold, without the damage. Allowing you to do it more often (the basis of the Norwegian method). To me you are better off skipping threshold and doing all tempo and if it's a fast race VO2 or above for you spicy stuff

I disagree. Tempo is lt pace, 85-88% max heart rate, roughly the pace you can sustain in a serious one hour race. The tempo part of a run is only the portion done at the lactate threshold. You can run at other paces during this run - so I run could look like 2 miles easy, 2 miles mp, 6 miles tempo, 2 miles cd v easy or something. Its not a 12 mile tempo run though, its a run with 6 miles of tempo.

Whether you should run at 90% of lt for training is another matter. Depending on your event, this may be ideal. If you're training for say the half marathon though 90% lt isn't fast enough to get you used to running at half marathon pace. The wheels may come off late in your goal half. Now if you can get more volume at 90% of lt then that pace may be desirable as prep for a period of race specific work.

Most people who aren't recovering from tempo running are trying to do too much at once - tempos, double thresholds, plus workouts and maybe a moderate long run, or taking their easy days too fast. Running easy days very easy is ideal for recovery. This means you'll be out there a long time to get in mileage. It will be kind of boring. That's what it takes.

I do like this idea of running at 90% of lt though - it could have a place in down weeks if you're doing your tempo running at lt as it will be easier to recover. I've thought about going slightly slow in workouts but never running at these paces between marathon and half much. I'd probably characterize this 90% of lt pace as marathon pace + x .

Surprising that the first close enough answer above came two years after OP. Threshold or lactate threshold pace is indeed defined based on a physiological criterion. All translations involving time (like one-hour sustainable pace) are approximate because the sustainable pace for any given time satisfying that physiological criterion can not be accurately measured, not easily at least.

Lactate threshold pace is not so much a pace as a state where lactate accumulation is exactly balanced by lactate clearance, and this state is maintained for the rest of the run after first hitting it. The average pace sustainable under this constraint decreases with increasing run time for everyone because lactate eventually starts creeping up. So for any given nontrivial length of time like 45, 50, 60, or 70 minutes, you can define a corresponding average lactate threshold pace. We fix a time period like an hour or 45 mins or sometimes even 20 mins so that we can compare it across individuals; FTP in cycling is similarly defined over an hourlong period for comparability.

The one-hour sustainable pace for most people is close enough to the one-hour lactate threshold pace as defined above, but most people may not actually run it strictly at their physiological threshold after first reaching it because they may negative- or positive-split it strategically.

What I’ve described above is at least well defined. People use all kinds of informal definitions sometimes without any connection to the physiological criterion or without realizing that their “definition” is not even well defined.

Since I've run a 10 miler in 60:11, a 20 minute tempo run for me would be 18:40 5K plus another 1:20 minutes of running at 6:00, but my 5K is 17:53... so for me that would be absolutely exhausting.

I like the old days of:

Hard Run, Medium Run, and Easy Run.