They don't have to. Trump is losing it all on his own.
They don't have to. Trump is losing it all on his own.
riverhorse wrote:
He admitted to being untruthful about masks and it caused harm.
You are literally too stupid to insult
Coach Stevensen wrote:
You need to take your head out of the sand, my friend.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2MmX2U2V3c
It is you who needs to expand your knowledge of recent history.
I'm fully aware that many conservates are making the same errors in conclusions, presumably because they are woefully ignorant of historical facts from just a few months ago, despite the video evidence being widely available.
When you are fully informed about what Fauci and others have been saying for months, it is hard to understate how ignorant Krystal and Saagar come across (and Big Del, and many others). Frankly, watching the last 4 minutes makes me cringe. I cannot understand how they can be so uninformed, and unashamed to unabashedly and obliviously express such ignorance.
Fauci, and the surgeon general, and the CDC, have been telling us for months about saving the real PPE for medical workers due to shortages. This was not news. Likewise, what what they told us back in March about masks not protecting the wearer is still as true today as it was then. What is "new", since Trumps April 3rd briefing, is the recommendations for face coverings in order to protect others from being infected by the wearer (while not providing much protection to the wearer, like they've been telling us for months).
It's unbelievable how little you understand about this situation. Masks DO offer a strong level of protection to the wearer. (Not 100% protection, but quite high). They always have. If masks didn't help, then why was Fauci so desperate to get masks to doctors treating coronavirus patients?
In February and March, Fauci was saying masks don't help - when he KNEW masks do help. Whether masks better protect the wearer or the other people from the wearer, Fauci was telling all 335 million Americans to not wear masks. That level of protection was not there for ANYONE for TWO MONTHS because Fauci lied to us.
NJ fan wrote:
...
It's unbelievable how little you understand about this situation. Masks DO offer a strong level of protection to the wearer. (Not 100% protection, but quite high). They always have. If masks didn't help, then why was Fauci so desperate to get masks to doctors treating coronavirus patients?
Dude, this makes you sound like you know nothing at all about medicine.
Doctors scrub and wear masks to protect THE PATIENTS.
covidthoughts wrote:
NJ fan wrote:
...
It's unbelievable how little you understand about this situation. Masks DO offer a strong level of protection to the wearer. (Not 100% protection, but quite high). They always have. If masks didn't help, then why was Fauci so desperate to get masks to doctors treating coronavirus patients?
Dude, this makes you sound like you know nothing at all about medicine.
Doctors scrub and wear masks to protect THE PATIENTS.
I know think you ought to be criticizing the previous poster as sounding he knows nothing at all about medicine.
Medical providers treating covid patients wear masks so they don't get infected with covid.
covidthoughts wrote:
NJ fan wrote:
...
It's unbelievable how little you understand about this situation. Masks DO offer a strong level of protection to the wearer. (Not 100% protection, but quite high). They always have. If masks didn't help, then why was Fauci so desperate to get masks to doctors treating coronavirus patients?
Dude, this makes you sound like you know nothing at all about medicine.
Doctors scrub and wear masks to protect THE PATIENTS.
Except the patients ALREADY HAVE coronavirus.
NJ fan wrote:
It's unbelievable how little you understand about this situation. Masks DO offer a strong level of protection to the wearer. (Not 100% protection, but quite high). They always have. If masks didn't help, then why was Fauci so desperate to get masks to doctors treating coronavirus patients?
In February and March, Fauci was saying masks don't help - when he KNEW masks do help. Whether masks better protect the wearer or the other people from the wearer, Fauci was telling all 335 million Americans to not wear masks. That level of protection was not there for ANYONE for TWO MONTHS because Fauci lied to us.
It should be unbelievable. You should believe the opposite -- that I know a great deal more about it than you.
Which kind of mask offers strong protection? The N-95 "respirators" that create a seal on your face, and trap 95% of airborne particles offer great protection for the wearer. These are the kinds of masks that Fauci and others have been saying for months are in short supply, and should be reserved for medical workers with the highest priority.
These "respirators" do not offer much protection if they are not fitted properly in order to create the seal -- something the general public might not be trained enough to do. Training is also required to take it off without potentially infecting yourself.
Other kinds of surgical masks and drug store masks, and cloth coverings that do not trap airborne particles, but do filter out droplets, offer limited protection for the healthy wearer, but does offer better protection to everyone else nearby, if the wearer is infected with the virus.
In February there were 24 known cases, so there was very low risk of transmission, and no reason to generally recommend any protection.
In March, Fauci and the medical experts were telling the sick to wear masks, to help reduce the spread, and telling the healthy to reserve the N-95 masks for medical workers because of shortages, and that other masks don't help the wearer that much.
In April, based on the increasing case count, and new findings about asymptomatic infections, they started telling the public to wear the drug store mask, or any cloth covering, not to protect the healthy wearer, because it still offers little protection, but to prevent the spread of the virus from those infected, and particularly from the asymptomatic, and telling the public to reserve the N-95 masks for medical workers because of shortages.
You admit masks offer benefits to both the wearer and others. Even "limited protection for the healthy wearer" (your words) could have helped tremendously. We went from 24 cases in February to over 3.5 million today. Did you ever stop to think that if we were all told to wear masks in February or March that we wouldn't have 3.5 million cases in total as of right now???
Also, you are so ignorant you don't realize that you are arguing in support of the decisions that Trump made. I've heard die-hard Trump supporters make the same arguments as you to justify Trump's handling of the crisis. I never knew you were a Trump supporter!
NJ fan wrote:
You admit masks offer benefits to both the wearer and others. Even "limited protection for the healthy wearer" (your words) could have helped tremendously. We went from 24 cases in February to over 3.5 million today. Did you ever stop to think that if we were all told to wear masks in February or March that we wouldn't have 3.5 million cases in total as of right now???
Also, you are so ignorant you don't realize that you are arguing in support of the decisions that Trump made. I've heard die-hard Trump supporters make the same arguments as you to justify Trump's handling of the crisis. I never knew you were a Trump supporter!
If you were paying close attention to the experts like Fauci months ago, the primary way to prevent the spread is through social distancing -- keeping 2 meters or 6 feet apart from everyone else.
Masks are supplemental secondary importance measure on top of that, like frosting on a cake. Experts have been saying this for months.
I'm not sure I would say "limited protection" translates to "helped tremendously". The experts say that the cloth coverings they recommended in April are good for "source control" (protecting others), and not so much "target control" (protecting the wearer).
Regarding 3.5 million cases in total, I stopped to think that this is primarily due to a combination of other factors than the secondary recommendation of public wearing cloth coverings on their face:
- When Trump announced the new CDC guidelines for cloth face coverings to help prevent the spread (in addition to the primary recommendation of social distancing), he undermined the guideline by emphasizing the optional nature of the recommendation, and, leading by example, said he would not wear one. What if he had strongly encouraged the wearing of masks in public, and led by example by having him and his administration wear masks? I've seen one study show that 80% compliance of masks that are 60% effective would be enough to reverse the curve. This doesn't work if 35% of the population don't wear masks.
- After many states implemented stay-at-home orders and temporary lockdowns, the CDC gave a phased set of recommendations based on criteria to decide when and how to slowly re-open safely. Meanwhile Trump threatened to withhold state funding for states that don't re-open by Trumps arbitrary deadline, and sent out tweets like "Liberate Michigan, Minnesota, and Virginia". What if Trump had endorsed and enforced the CDC guidelines for gradual re-opening?
- Is there any state which re-opened after meeting the criteria in the CDC guidelines? Maybe only one -- the hardest hit New York.
- Leading by example, Trump has organized several super-spreader events, against all recommendations, where many of his supporters gather in enclosed spaces and huddle next to each other without masks, shouting and shedding virus within a 6 foot radius, with every breath they exhale.
Of course, I do not doubt that if everyone wore N-95 respirator masks, which the experts say are very good at "target control", with a tight fitting seal around the face that captures 95% of airborne particles, and avoided touching the outside of the mask, the case count would drop dramatically within weeks. If we had started manufacturing billions of these masks in December, this might have been the best option for the general public. As the experts have been telling us for months, we had a limited supply of these kinds of masks, and they were recommending for months to reserve these superior masks for the medical workers due to shortages in supply. Even if we had just mimicked many of the Asian countries, who had previously been shell-shocked by SARs and MERs outbreaks, and just wore cloth masks as a matter of culture without waiting for a medical recommendation, we could have kept the spread manageable with a Swedish style response due to partially effective source control. This requires a strong, federally coordinated plan and execution -- and not a cheerleader on the sidelines saying "Go team!".
But if the US president is ambivalent in his support of mask wearing, his supporters will naturally follow suit. And if the president blames others (Fauci, the WHO, China, state governors, etc.) for his many failures to provide a strong leadership, his supporter will naturally follow suit.
Not sure which Trump decisions you are referring to. Whenever Trump re-echoed the words of Fauci and other medical experts and made decisions recommended by the medical experts in the Task Force, I supported these decisions.
Lab testing shows that surgical masks offer 75% protection for the wearer. That is SIGNIFICANT.
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.17.20069567v2.full.pdfFauci told people to NOT wear a mask that blocks 75% of airborne particles incoming to the wearer. That is the main reason the spread was so rapid.
It's hard to complain about people not wearing masks now when for 2 months Fauci told them they didn't need to, then suddenly Fauci changes his recommendation. He is not trustworthy.
Question for NJ (This should be very easy) Who do you trust more Fauci or Trump? Trump falsely wants Fauci to be the scapegoat (really the whipping boy for the king). Fauci is not having it. Fauci said, “I think if you sit down and talk to the people who are involved in that list that came out, they are really, I think, taken aback by what a big mistake that was.”
I trust doctors that have nothing to do with the government. Fauci has been wrong about literally everything, every step of the way. Early on he was telling people coronavirus isn't a serious threat. Then he was saying masks are bad and he lied to people about it. Then he was saying washing your hands is the best way to prevent it (washing hands has no benefit). Then he started saying crazy stuff like we may never be able to shake hands ever again.
Every issue you have with Trump's response is because Fauci provided INCORRECT information.
NJ fan wrote:
I trust doctors that have nothing to do with the government. Fauci has been wrong about literally everything, every step of the way. Early on he was telling people coronavirus isn't a serious threat. Then he was saying masks are bad and he lied to people about it. Then he was saying washing your hands is the best way to prevent it (washing hands has no benefit). Then he started saying crazy stuff like we may never be able to shake hands ever again.
Every issue you have with Trump's response is because Fauci provided INCORRECT information.
Trump knows his minions well. So you think everything Trump did wrong, this entire debacle is Fauci's fault? I remember Trump constantly dismissing warning and concerns from the CDC and Fauci.
Don't buy into Trump's fantasy that he is not responsible for this mess!
https://www.vox.com/2020/4/12/21218305/trump-ignored-coronavirus-warningsTrump can not take Fauci on. Integrity and honesty beat the lies every time. People believe Fauci.
NJ fan wrote:
Lab testing shows that surgical masks offer 75% protection for the wearer. That is SIGNIFICANT.
...
Fauci told people to NOT wear a mask that blocks 75% of airborne particles incoming to the wearer. That is the main reason the spread was so rapid.
It's hard to complain about people not wearing masks now when for 2 months Fauci told them they didn't need to, then suddenly Fauci changes his recommendation. He is not trustworthy.
You are still mixing up masks, and mixing up what Fauci said.
The surgical masks at 75% are part of the ones in limited supply.
Fauci and the CDC and the Surgeon general have been telling the public for months to save these medical grade masks for medical workers due to the shortages of supply.
The cloth masks recommended by Fauci and the CDC in Trump's briefing on April 3rd offer much less protection: 30-60%.
The point of this study was to see how much protection these cloth alternatives offer medical workers when the N-95 and surgical masks run out.
The main reason the spread was unknown was two-fold: asymptomatic spread and lack of testing.
Note that masks are a secondary defense to the primary recommendation of social distancing. If you were listening carefully, before April 3rd, Fauci said that everyone should social distance -- that was the most important advice. In addition to social distancing, healthy persons did not need to wear masks, but that sick people should wear masks to help prevent the spread, and that N-95 and medical grade masks should be reserved for medical workers.
By April 3rd, the recommendation changed, based on the rapidly increasing number of cases, and new findings that infected persons can be asymptomatic, making it difficult to judge who is healthy.
The message from the CDC, and the reasoning, was clear -- if the public got that wrong, it is not Fauci's fault.
It's easy to complain about people not wearing masks now. He was saying in February and March, when the number of cases was small, that recommendations can change, when the virus starts spreading. In a pandemic, where much is unknown about a new virus, the news can be updated rapidly, it is important to keep up to date with the latest medical advice as it changes based on new information, and it is important for a strong leader to provide clarity and consistency in the messaging (as opposed to calling it a hoax, or promoting experimental drugs, or muddying the message by downplaying the CDC guidelines).
I note your study is also dated the 17th of April, two weeks after the recommendation for everyone to wear masks, and save the medical grade masks for the medical workers.
Trump doesn’t have the balks to just fire him so instead we have this stupid campaign to discredit him instead. Posters here are just paid to spread the message and blindly following orders.
It is sad really. This presidency is a massive dumpster fire. Luckily we only have to ride it out for another 6 months.
NJ fan wrote:
I trust doctors that have nothing to do with the government. Fauci has been wrong about literally everything, every step of the way. Early on he was telling people coronavirus isn't a serious threat. Then he was saying masks are bad and he lied to people about it. Then he was saying washing your hands is the best way to prevent it (washing hands has no benefit). Then he started saying crazy stuff like we may never be able to shake hands ever again.
Every issue you have with Trump's response is because Fauci provided INCORRECT information.
Literally everything you say that Fauci got wrong is either 1) not wrong, or 2) you getting it wrong.
Early on it wasn't a threat, because it was not wide spread. At the end of February, there were 24 known cases.
He did not say ever say masks were bad, and he did not lie to people about it.
He was saying social distancing is the best way to prevent it.
Hand-washing is still important, and recommended -- who says it has "no benefit"?
I have many issues with Trump when he contradicted, undermined, or went way beyond the information provided by Fauci, the CDC, the Surgeon general, etc.
He pressured states to re-open prematurely, ignoring Fauci and the CDC.
He encouraged experimental drugs on his own initiative.
He held rallies, ignoring virtually everybody.
He is now pressuring schools to re-open, again without a plan or in accordance with CDC guidelines.
It’s July, let’s just enjoy ourselves not that we’re roaring again ?
https://www.yahoo.com/news/jared-kushner-said-us-really-205942140.html
covidthoughts wrote:
NJ fan wrote:
...
It's unbelievable how little you understand about this situation. Masks DO offer a strong level of protection to the wearer. (Not 100% protection, but quite high). They always have. If masks didn't help, then why was Fauci so desperate to get masks to doctors treating coronavirus patients?
Dude, this makes you sound like you know nothing at all about medicine.
Doctors scrub and wear masks to protect THE PATIENTS.
Incorrect, little boy.
Doctors wear masks for TWO different purposes. FIRST is not to transfer any pathogens to the patient. SECOND to protect themselves from pathogens that the patient may be carrying.
In other news: Trump throws adviser Peter Navarro under the bus and defends Dr. Fauci. Navarro will be out of a job soon.