Wilson Kipsang banned for 4 years

rekrunner wrote:

I understand "precisely" what the rule violations mean.

The severe penalties serve as a deterrent, in order to ensure rule compliance.

"Whereabouts Failures" are not a finding of "avoiding" tests, but of "missing" tests (and/or filing failures).

And these are not findings, or even inferences of, doping.

So what inference would you draw from 3 missed tests? Forgetfulness? (which is punished the same as for a doping infraction). Realistically, why does an athlete fail to comply with testing requirements?

Wet Coast wrote:

The doping control officers should not be Kenyan.

ADAK (Kenyan doping control officers) is the only anti-doping agency in the world getting results. The officers involved in the Kiprop mess (a Brit and his Kenyan fixer) were not from ADAK. And over the past few years, they've proved that no Kenyan name is too big to be brought down. The Coleman case indicates the situation is very different in America. I say doping control officers in America should not be American.

If a Kenyan athlete dopes, we can be certain they'll be caught. The thorough WADA report stated that doping in Kenya is unsophisticated and opportunistic. Abraham Kiptum, for example, lasted all but a year as a top tier elite after literally coming from nowhere to break the half WR. USADA, and UKAD, on the other hand, are clearly not fulfilling their mandate. Sophisticated doping methods, such as those exposed at the NOP and cycling's Team Sky; rampant TUE abuse; and the legal minefield bringing a single charge entails, suggests most dopers in those countries are getting away with murder.

Meanwhile, Western athletes continue to travel to the Rift Valley to learn from the Kenyans. Kenyan training methods have been adopted and adapted worldwide (altitude training only became a thing after Kenyan success in the 60s and 70s. Western scientists have taken to running lab rat type experiments on Kenyan athletes and used these studies to improve distance running in their own countries. But to call for a blanket ban of the country because of a very small section who violated anti-doping rules is disingenuous and hypocritical. I hope the Kenyan running community wakes up and stops welcoming and accomodating these foreign elements. They're not to be trusted. Keep them at a distance like the Ethiopians do.

Armstronglivs wrote:

So what inference would you draw from 3 missed tests? Forgetfulness? (which is punished the same as for a doping infraction). Realistically, why does an athlete fail to comply with testing requirements?

I would infer that he missed 3 tests.

The trouble with inference is that it is something that originates from a seed that is planted deep inside your imagination. This allows you to infer whatever you wish to infer. Such wishful thinking may or may not have anything to do with the reality of the facts in this case.

I have said it before and I will say it again:

EVERYONE in the sport of track and field at the world class level is on performance enhancing drugs (PEDs).

Everyone.

Nike even gives all of their athletes synthetic PEDs that are designed specifically for the athlete. Drugs that are created in the Nike labs, specifically for that athletes physiology, metabolic profile, distance, height, weight, VO2 max etc.

To claim UKAD aren’t doing their jobs because there aren’t a slew of positive tests, is silly. There are very few world class Brits. Most of these have had excellent careers as juniors and then slowly improved. Mo Farah and Laura Muir are probably the only two who are absolutely world class, and most fans in the U.K. think very negatively about Farah.

There are still incredible numbers of Kenyan athletes testing positive, however phenomenal depth. We used to be told that it was the B and C level athletes, but more recently top Kenyans are getting caught - which is positive for the sport. However it is depressing. To an unbiased observed what was seen in Russia is not what is happening in Kenya (state sponsored doping), but it is clear that Kenya single handedly is killing the sport as athletes from there are being caught every month. The lack of positive cases in Ethiopia is partly because Ethiopia doesn’t have the same depth, however given Dibaba, her coach and the EPO vials there must be a doping culture there. I can understand frustration from a Kenyan fan if you see Dibaba not getting punished. But it isn’t the case that every athlete in the world cheats. There are some clean athletes. Was Kipsang cheating his whole career? I don’t know or care. He is someone who put individual success above the needs of the sport and I won’t waste any time thinking anything positive about him

Wet Coast wrote:

Also, whoever said that out-of-competition testing in Kenya was common in the 1990s, no it wasn't. It wasn't until recently that a WADA approved lab was even set up in Kenya.

...

That is apparently not enough. many of the top Kenyans are getting caught for EPO or some other PED. Kipsang was honoured similar to Kipchoge until Kipchoge came along.

When we speak of out of competition testing, we must distinguish between testing for different drugs, like steroids versus EPO, and we must distinguish between blood and urine. Out of competition tests for steroids existed back in the '90s. Out of competition tests for EPO (urine) existed since 2003. Blood testing only started with the introduction of the ABP after 2009. The fact that a local lab was setup recently only pertains to blood testing for EPO. Urine tests are not subject to the same strict requirements as blood testing.

And I note once again, that Kipsang was caught and convicted, not "for EPO or some other PED", but for excessive whereabouts failures, and for tampering with the anti-doping control process.

rekrunner wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

So what inference would you draw from 3 missed tests? Forgetfulness? (which is punished the same as for a doping infraction). Realistically, why does an athlete fail to comply with testing requirements?

I would infer that he missed 3 tests.

The trouble with inference is that it is something that originates from a seed that is planted deep inside your imagination. This allows you to infer whatever you wish to infer. Such wishful thinking may or may not have anything to do with the reality of the facts in this case.

That the anti-doping authorities treat 3 missed tests the same as a doping violation shows what inference they are drawing.

Wet Coast wrote:

Sorry, but ARD TV exposed Kenya as an open market for performance-enhancing drugs.

Here you overstate exactly what ARD TV has exposed, and any connection to top-level athletics.

Essentially, in a half-dozen or so documentaries, they merely showed that if you pose as a European agent with money, you will find people ready to take your money.

Much of what they exposed are like dramatic made for TV re-enactments, or acts of entrapment.

Armstronglivs wrote:

That the anti-doping authorities treat 3 missed tests the same as a doping violation shows what inference they are drawing.

We can only infer the perceived severity of the violation from the punishment.

bannned i got wrote:

who knows...but in one page this thread has been rekked....dear lord its beyond annoying. give it up gary. at least el k finally had to shut up his rants and accept that doping in kenya is really bad. why do you come to this site anyway? shouldnt you be rioting or complaining about white privilege in portland or something gary? lolz your bullsh*t never ends does it?

or maybe you are some russian troll that is trying to downplay doping in order to get back into the sport...

I find it entertaining that simply referring back to the definitions of the violations can still trigger such emotional opposition from the same few people.

rekrunner wrote:

I find it entertaining that simply referring back to the definitions of the violations can still trigger such emotional opposition from the same few people.

Nice trolling. Or more precisely, you are lying again. You didn't refer back "to the definitions of the violations", you made up your own little words with "administrative failure, or a coordination failure", and then defended them vehemently.

And ever so coincidentally (LOL) you used the singular instead of the plural when describing Kipsang's anti-DOPING rule violationS.

"such emotional opposition"? LOL, admit it, you love being corrected so you can keep rekrunnering.

rekrunner wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

That the anti-doping authorities treat 3 missed tests the same as a doping violation shows what inference they are drawing.

We can only infer the perceived severity of the violation from the punishment.

4 years severe enough?

casual obsever wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

I find it entertaining that simply referring back to the definitions of the violations can still trigger such emotional opposition from the same few people.

Nice trolling. Or more precisely, you are lying again. You didn't refer back "to the definitions of the violations", you made up your own little words with "administrative failure, or a coordination failure", and then defended them vehemently.

And ever so coincidentally (LOL) you used the singular instead of the plural when describing Kipsang's anti-DOPING rule violationS.

"such emotional opposition"? LOL, admit it, you love being corrected so you can keep rekrunnering.

Nice trolling yourself: falsely accuse me of lying to lay the foundation for more of your own lies.

I refer you now to the rules WADA Code, and the definitions which can be found in ISTI.

You critique me for choosing my own words, but forgot to show that my words were inconsistent with these definitions.

I am open to any counter-arguments how a "Filing Failure" cannot be best considered an "administrative failure", and how a "Missed Test" cannot be best considered a "coordination failure".

Hypocritically, "doping violation" is also a "made up" term, which you defended (apparently you often think Armstronglivs is unable to defend himself), calling it a "common practice".

I find it disturbing that it is accepted "common practice" to consistently misrepresent doping by playing up offenses into something they are not. If doping is the big problem it is supposed to be, why the constant need for such deception?

Contrary to your new allegation, I did not find back any examples of referring to Kipsang's violations in the singular. On the contrary, when I referred to Kipsang's ban, it was often if not always in the plural. Where I found me using "violation" in the singular, was in response to a hypothetical question from Armstronglivs, or when talking about the individual rules themselves generally.

You try to cloud the issue by accusing me of things that everyone else is doing, but this is a smokescreen to hide the essential facts that no one has refuted, and cannot refute:

- Non-dopers can be found guilty of a whereabouts failure violation and of tampering

- Kipsang's ban does not provide us any tangible basis that he doped

Armstronglivs wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

We can only infer the perceived severity of the violation from the punishment.

4 years severe enough?

As I said above, these non-doping infractions are serious. This is because the failure to comply undermines the effectiveness of anti-doping.

It is appropriate that a severe penalty be imposed as a deterrent.

It is not unexpected that an anti-doping agency making a set of rules would want all of the stakeholders to take these rules seriously in order to maximize effectiveness.

Wilson at the moment is a person who needs help.

Till 2014, Wilson was serious in training and in his normal life such as Eliud Kipchoge. He went Iten from his village, built a house where living the rest of his life, built a church for all people living in his area, and had the focus in training only. And, 100%, was not doped.

His parabola started to go down when he was elected chairman of PAK, Professional Athletes of Kenya. He started to fight against AK, and AK started to fight with him. He wanted to earn points with the Government, asking AK to be selected for WCh in Beijing 2015 together with Dennis Kimetto, at the moment the WR holder, and already was clear that the decision was not technical, but political.

Wilson decided to build a Hotel (Keellu Resort) who costed a lot of money but didn't produce real income ; tried to become MP, but received few votes only ; and, at the end, started to drink, when till 2014 never drank one drop of alcool.

Two days ago, he had an interview that it's possible to find in youtube. He had the interview while drunk : Wilson was a fluent talker, two days ago was not able to speak, and what he said was so confused that nobody can understand.

It was very sad to see so big champion, and in the past so great person, in those conditions. The problem is that was his "normal" condition during the last two years, so, don't be surprised he didn't care about the time of his whereabout, since he forgot everything and didn't have any focus when drunk.

Wilson never was a doped athlete, and never was a cheater : now, he's no longer an athlete (his real year of birth is not 1982 but 1978, so he's already 42 years old), and is a person needing help only.

Thank yu for your kind insight Renato,

I looked on youtube and it is indeed tragic.

He seems to have lost all touch with reality.

Renato Canova wrote:

Wilson never was a doped athlete, and never was a cheater : now, he's no longer an athlete (his real year of birth is not 1982 but 1978, so he's already 42 years old), and is a person needing help only.

In reality, he likely doped the entirety of his career like most of these cheats.

(And he's also a confirmed age cheater, thanks for that Renato).

Kenya has more mid/distance running depth than the rest of the world put together, so it's only logical that it has more ADRVs given the level required even to get noticed. Interesting that you'd concede the absence of a coordinated state-sponsored doping system in Kenya to hyperbolically accusing them of "single-handedly killing the sport". I've always understood this to be code for western audiences, and aspiring athletes find Kenyans unrelatable for reasons of race or culture so the sport would be better off without Kenyans. I suggest freeing yourself of these prejudices by understanding Kenyans, just like Americans and Europeans, deserve to be judged on an individual capacity.

Thanks Renato -- that makes a lot of sense.

I hadn't seen any notable performances from him since 2017, and I had heard about the conflicts before between PAK and AK.