Mr. Renato Canova: Could You Please Answer a Question About Effective Ways to Improve the Lactate Threshold?

Renato,

Witch is the best way for a distance runner (1500-5000m) to improve 400m speed?

thanks

JK & KH: wrote:

And so did Gebrselassie, and he faded so badly that Paula Radcliffe ran HER last mile FASTER than did Gebrselassie.

At about the 1:50-1:55 mark of a highly paced marathon, your body will start to switch its fuel consumption ("the wall"). You need some sort of replacement drink.

Do you think the fact that Geb strained his calf/achilles right at that point, after running over cobblestones had anything to do with his slow last mile?? Or the fact that he completely lost contact with Tergat/KK at that point (due to calf cramp AND probably hitting the wall a bit) and was only running for 3rd and no longer for 1st/2nd ?

You can't say that is was just simply that he ran out of fuel. That could have been a factor, but he hurt his calf too, and also no longer was running for victory, so of course he slowed up.

Personally, I think a few carbs would be helpful, but I have no idea if it would have helped Geb avoid his calf/achilles issues at that point or not.

Those cobbles at 22 miles, The Tower of London, were horrible. That section has now been removed from the race, and few runners will miss them. There were hardly any spectators there anyway. They definitely did cause tiring of the calves, but it is also a point where a lot of people hit the wall.

I think most runners don't carbo load enough before a Marathon. Haile hit the wall for sure.

sisu wrote:

Statistical evidence (and experience) has shown that running at 95.2% of LTV for 65 min. provides the optimum training effect for improving both LTV and running economy

ya right, do you make this stuff up

Please, don't be such an idiot. These guys have worked with people like Todd Harbour, 3:50 miler, John Lodwick, Pat Porter, and mny other greats, and have spent HOURS crunching numbers using the information available to them based on race times, workout programs, and the athletes completing them. Fitness, for whatever reason, DOES seem to improve in 30 minute increments in a "Stair step" fashion.

Sir Lance-alot wrote:

Do you think the fact that Geb strained his calf/achilles right at that point, after running over cobblestones had anything to do with his slow last mile?? Or the fact that he completely lost contact with Tergat/KK at that point (due to calf cramp AND probably hitting the wall a bit) and was only running for 3rd and no longer for 1st/2nd ?

You can't say that is was just simply that he ran out of fuel. That could have been a factor, but he hurt his calf too, and also no longer was running for victory, so of course he slowed up.

Personally, I think a few carbs would be helpful, but I have no idea if it would have helped Geb avoid his calf/achilles issues at that point or not.

Incorrect. Jos and Gebrselassie confirmed it was a fuel problem.

The calf did not act up until June 1, 2002 at Hengelo where he attempted the hour world record on the track, dropping out after 38 minutes because of soleus pain.

He had been doing special calf exercises for years during his track days and stopped them during marathon training. Of course, this was a mistake, because the strength he had developed and maintained to allow him to propel the strength into forward motion on the track eventually will disappear if it is not put into at least some sort of "maintanence" mode where the muscles retain the strength development. He dropped them completely and lost the strength gains while still trying to run at the same level. The muscles lost their ability to keep up with his cardiovascular system, and his Achilles went POP soon after.

The removal of the cobblestones was supposed to shave 45 seconds from the elites' times. If that was the case, Lel would have been 2:08+ and Paula 2:18:27. Perhaps the weather hampered them. Really, the rule about male pacemakers is patently absurd and should be completely done away with.

Among IAAF failures in logic, this is one of the biggest, perhaps also with doing away with half the eligible Golden League events each year (i.e., last year, I believe there was no men's 400 and only a few women's 800, essentially preventing Maria Mutola from winning a million dollars again unless she took up high jumping or some such foregin event).

Antonio Cabral, can you explain what you know about the preparation of Fermin Cacho and Reyes Estevez? Cacho had such poor style but ran so many times 50-51 for the last lap. Estevez seems a dirty runner; he shoved Paul Korir in Paris 2003, never letting those running outside lane 1 in to track the leader even when they are faster than Estevez.

look how big this thread is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 100 pages

Please forgive me, I think that that statement is laughable and an exercise in someones mind. I mean LTV if it could be pinpointed so precisely, are you suggesting that someone run at 95.2% even though your LTV can and could change +/-

daily. Call it what it is and don't pretend this is some scientific (published) reasearch.

Statistical evidence (and experience) has shown that running at 95.2% of LTV for 65 min. provides the optimum training effect for improving both LTV and running economy

Sorry, I should have read my last post before sending. What I am getting at is, if you are able to identify the lactate threshold precisely(not as easily as on would believe) at say the traditional standard of 4mmol and look to corresponding velocity. Next you go about training at that supposed LTV and you assume because you are running a certain pace you are running at the 4 mmol(if you happen to call that LT). Guess what. lactate production is influenced by many more things than velocity, so unless you are doing real time testing while doing your running on a treadmill to maintain the 95.2% speed,all you are doing is a staatistical exercise that gives you a number to throw around but may have no accuracy.

Renato, is Nicholas Kemboi preparing for a 10,000? He had 7:55 today in a race won in 7:28; that's 13:12 pace. Heavy training, perhaps? Tadesse, too, had 7:39. A great time, but surprising considering he beat Kipchoge handily at World Cross-Country.

Kemboi ran 7:50.9

mdr wrote:

Kemboi ran 7:50.9

That is still not indicative of someone seeking to ameliorate a 26:30 10,000m PB. I would love to see a hammerfest in the Helsinki 10 between Kemboi (26:30), Bekele (26:20), Sihine (26:39), Tadesse (27:--), Hassan (26:38), Gebremariam (26:53), and whoever the heck else they could obtain.

That would be sick nasty, for lack of a better phrase.

I'm happy about Nicholas performance, because at the moment he has very little training, due to personal problems (his wife was very sick for long time during winter, and he assisted her in the Hospital without really training) and also to the situation that confused him before changing citizenship. Now, he is officially Qatari, and can run in World Championships. The race in Doha was only a test that I needed for checking his current base. He was with the leading group for 1600m (obviously too fast, you can see the splits that I wrote in another post), and was not able to stay at the same pace after that distance. He ran 5:07.4 at 2000, then 6:14.8 (1:07.4), 7:20.6 (1:05.8) and 30.3 last 200m, showing that he needed to recover after the fast start, but had yet good energies in the final. I think that at the moment, running at even pace of 2:35, he can run 7:45 that is not so bad.

His next race will be 5000m in Hengelo, where his goal is to run in 13:15. I think that in two full months of training with the correct motivation he can repeat this time twice, running about in 26:30 / 26:40 for World Championships. And after, we look at HM Championships...

Ma Runner

I will post soon what i know about this your issue. But that will be in this thread.

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=825534

So i horn you to take a look to that thread. Wiat and see.

hengalo is turing out to be one hell of a track meet.

Renato, perhaps you don't know, but why does the Kenyan Delegation make things so difficult for the athletes?

I find it hard to believe they can be surprised so many athletes (Shaheen, Hassan Kwalia, Mucheru, Lagat, Kemboi, in the past, Kipketer, though maybe he left for a different reason, also Lornah, etc.) have left with the way they treat the athletes so horribly.

I remember when Komen was racing in 1996 and 1997, and he wasn't even assured a spot on the teams. Only in Kenya could they leave behind a guy OFF the Olympic team, who later in the summer ran 7:20.67 for 3,000 meters and 12:45.10, beating Haile Gebrselassie in Zurich. This organization simply put is as bad an athletics institution in any country anywhere. Ethiopia selects a Golden League race for its athletes to do in order to determine who can perform in fast competition. This is absolutely the best way, because many of these athletes would do a Golden League race anyway, and it does not disrupt the preparation. Kenya instead ruins the preparation of the athletes using ridiculous "camps" that destroy runners running them into the ground and the Trials as well that are useless. Freak accidents happen and the best athletes are left off the team. In 1997 The delegation started giving Komen all sorts of grief about his racing in Hechtel for the 2 mile world record. He went there, ran 7:58.61 and destroyed the world record of Gebrselassie, and the Kenyan team thought they might leave him off because he disobeyed their ridiculous rules.

In every interview, he had to explain how the race was part of his preparation for Athens. Of course, he made it to Athens and destroyed everyone, running a 58 second lap right in the middle of the race, 13:07 and 2:28 for the 4th kilometer. But imagine the delegation leaving him off to "teach him a lesson" of some ridiculous nature that has nothing to do with sport.

I think that the main reason because Kenya is going to lose its supremacy is a false sense of democracy (the same of US, Australia and of all the Countries using dry trials).

Of course, Countries having a lot of talents have to guarantee opportunities also for newcomers. May be normal that an unknown US sprinter, or an unknown middle distance runner of Kenya, can improve so much in one season that he can have the opportunity to be selected and, why not, to win a medal. See last year Timothy Kiptanui, for example, or this year Daniel Kipchirchir Komen,

But I think that, when you have athletes that always were able to reach top results in top events, you must guarantee them that they must be sure about their selection. This was the main reason for the change of citizenship of Stephen Cherono : not money, but to be sure that he could run ALWAYS in WCh, Olympics (also if last year he didn't have the release) and every type of competition having a title. Top athletes know very well that, winning these competitions, you can have a lot of money from sponsors, Companies, organizers, IAAF. But you cannot win if you are not there.

When you have Michael Johnson, Bubka, Gebrselassie, Bekele, Shaheen, Maurice Greene of 4 years ago, Carl Lewis, Allen Johnson, Jonathan Edwards, Marion Jones, Paula Radcliffe, it's simply ridicolous to ask them to pass thru trials for qualifying themselves.

The case of Bungei in 2003 was clear : he was the winner of ALL the competitions till Kenyan trials, and during the last 3 years NEVER he lost one race from another Kenyan.

Being sick during the week of Trials, he was cut from WCh.

Do you think that he had the some opportunity of a newcomer ? Can you cancel 3 years of supremacy because you have a small problem for one week (but it's the wrong week) ? This is the first point.

The second point is a technical point.

Kenya is the only Country in the World that doesn-t respect the job of personal coaches and managers. An example : Brother Colm is following from the beginning of their career (I hads only a short period in 2003 with Augustine as coach) talentes like Isaac Songok and Augustine Choge. They were able to improve continuously, becoming the best Kenyans, always selected. The same for Eliud Kipchoge. When they win trials, is because their training is good, and it means that their coach and their manager are working very well for developing those athletes. After this, the Kenyan system is to put all together during the last 5-6 weeks, going to a National coach that nobody knows, that never spoke with the personal coaches, that doesn't know anything about the technical plans of the athletes, and that wants tu use a "plan of group" that is the most ridicolous choice before a top event. So, the normal solution is that the athletes go out of shape.

Kenyan say that they have to work like a team. But what does it means ? What is the team that can face the Ethiopians running 12:57 the last 5 km of 10000m in Paris, when the best PB of kenyan runners is 13:03 / 13:09 / 13:13 ? It's a problem of team, or is it a problem of personal value ?

They are speaking about tacticts, but nobody knows the other runners, because nobody has experience. All the coaches live always in Kenya. So, their tactical proposal are completely out of any reality. In Paris, the tactic of 3000 steeple for Kenyans was "You have to lock Stephen Cherono, then you decide who can win". After this, Ezekiel Kemboi said "we awaited a tactical race, and were surprised for the fast start of Shaheen". So, the tactical choice is for the stronger, not for the weaker : this one has only to follow and to await.

In Kenya, nobody is happy about this situation, but nobody has the balls for clearly speaking.

In Ethiopia the situation is very different. The National coaches are the coaches of the athletes from their beginning, so there is continuity in the training plan. The same is with my Qatari athletes : all them are always with me or with my collaborators, and never change their guide. I decide whom I put in the team, and every one has very precise targets far from the competition.

Till when Kenya doesn't modify this system, guaranteeing the full assistance to the best athletes, they go to lose their chance step by step.

But, for doing this, Kenya Federation must have more respect and knowledge for the coaches, understanding that the technical knowledge is something of important.

And, at the moment, it seems that the Officials think that a good coach is only an optional.

please stop the madness.