Mr. Renato Canova: Could You Please Answer a Question About Effective Ways to Improve the Lactate Threshold?

Dunes

Since in a your early post reply to my own post you did argue that that my example is wrong becauwe that´s not real, and now you uses a your own example, that one of the A runner- 30miles a week 30:01, that is also a imaginary example that doesn´t exist in the reality. Let me repeat, ther´s no one such thing, this is a YOUR FANTASY a 10000m female runner with 30:01. the only runner apart from Junxia that did 30:01 until, today that´s Paula Radcliffe and as you know she do more than 30miles a week. OK !

From this point on with all respect that i have for you - i ddon´t want to argue or debate with you no more, because you did uses lots of "logic tricks" as this one - my example of the runner with the wheels that´s no correct because that´s not real, and niw you aregue aginst me with a example that´s not real ?????????

Also the fact that i´m not able to discuss to you is that after you argue that the reason why doping exists that´s because the companies that promote the substances, but despite i did ask a few times what´s the company that´s behind the blood doping, you aren´t able to answers me YES OR NO ! A close answer, YES or NO ? Why because when you wioll be sincere in the anmswer that everyubody knows that NO campany sells blood doping, your argument that the drug is the result of the companies that falls down !

You see, when that´s intersting to you and fgoes to your arguments you say that drugs aren´t your concern, but when that´s to judge the claimed use fo drugs by the Chinese woman ro whatever - this concerns to you and you emit your opinion. this is a old trick - to think that you are naive and ignorant - that´s really a trick to avoid the argumentation, but when that´s to make a judgement you have your own - then that´s not out of your knowledge or out of your concern.

The reality my friend is this one - relate your your A and B false example - is that a female runner Fernanda Ribeiro(A) that never did less than 32:00 in the 10000m and that did 15-17kilos a day and that´s lazy to train and runs only for make money, and another female runner Junxia(B) that did 40kilos a day and that´s lives a spartan life, with great motivation for his country, the A 32:00 runner - slower more than 1m30s than A-runner - she was able to win the B runner in the olympics. Then she have not just more talent than Junxia as she is the champion the one that wins more medals, more titles in the olympoics and in the WC than Junxia - the B runner. And considering WRs Fernanda she did more WRs than Junxia, or you doubt? Also one fact that she did a long career than Junxia - so in the longevity consideration, also a detail to consider - Fernnada wins over Junxia in tha item. Let make you know that Feranada did win 3000m in the Junior WChamps and she did participate in 4 olympics, but of course Junxia career was so short because she took drugs.

One final question that comes to my mind - you said that you use herbs and propducts similart to the chinese. Don´+y you buy them to a company or all chinese herbs that comes from the soil that you live and for free? One more question that i doubt that you will answer directly. YES i did buy or NO i never did buy? I know that you did buy - at least one time, and if you didn´t buy that to a big company also to a little micro-commerce (also a profit organisation, then you are also influenced as anyone else to buy SUBSTANCES than you use and that you think that are good.

Dunes the only guy that i knew - similar as you claim to be - that´s the unabomber, but he was arrest some years ago ! He is the one that lives voluntary in pooverty, that have no electricity, no water, no television, he didn´t use machines, no drugs of course, no medicaments from the capitalist civilisation, no MacDonalds of course - all natural products. If we take a superficial look for him he seems find, quite perfect, ecologist, pacifist, against the civilisation, etc, but when we did look deeply we would understand that he is no more than a murderer.

Talent shmalent.

Perhaps some of the most talented runners who ever lived never ran a step. And some people without the greatest talent won Olympic Gold and set WR.

So, is MJs 19.32? Let me ask the same question that I asked about Ma's Army a few pages back. What did MJ do in training that was so incredibly special? Anyone? Or was he just incredibly talented? Or did he (and Wang?) pull a Beamon? Everthing was just so incredibly perfect on the day, a once in a decade chance.....opportunity met preparation etc etc. 19.32 is so far ahead of everyone else.

Cheers

GILT

Fernanda Ribeiro

birth: 23th June 1969

Tall: 1.61m

Weight: 48 Kg

Palmarés

Gold in Atlanta/96 olimpics, 10 000mt.

Bronze Sydney/00 olimpics, 10 000mt.

Gold in WChamps - 10 000mt - Gotemburg/95

Silver in WChamps 5 000mt - Gotemburg/95

Silver WChamps 10 000mt - Atenas/97

Bronze WChamps - 5 000mt - Athens/97

Bronze Indoor WChamps - 3 000mt em Paris/97

Silver Júnior WChamps - 3 000mt - Sudbury/88

Silver World Cup 10 000mt - London/94

Gold Europen Champs - 10 000mt em Helsinquie/94

Silver Europa Chmaps 10 000mt - Budapeste/98

Gold indoor European Champs - 3 000mt - Stockholm /96

Gold indoor European Champs - 3 000mt - Paris/94

Silver indoor European Champs - 3 000mt - Valencia/98

Gold in Junior European Chmaps - 3 000mt - Birmingham/88

Records PB´s

2000m: 5:37.88 - Lisbon 1996

5000m: 14:36.45 em Hechtel 1995 (World record)

10.000m metros: 30:22.88 - Sydney 2000

2000m indoor: 5:37.34 - Valência 1996

3000m metros: 8:39.49 em Stockholm 1996

Indoor 5000m: 15:06.52 em Moscow 1996

EarlierOlímpico record 10000m: 31:01.63 em Atlanta 1996

Half Marathon: 1:09:19 - Ovar 1998

She did 1988, 1992, 1996, 2000, 2004 olympics – 5 times.

http://uk.sports.yahoo.com/at/profile/1834.html

During all these years she did win more than 100 important competitions among meetings, cross runs and road runs.

Now please tell me who is the winner and the champion - the runner A- Fernanda or runner B-Junxia ? Fernanda did hundreds of drug tests, she competes for 22 years ago – she still competes, and she is very lazzy to train and work hard.

The fact, my friends is that Fernanda did lot of runs and PB´s all over the world, but Junxia only did WRs in the East, when ther´s no drug tests. When the runs are for serious in the occident and there were drug tests done by independent and honest people, she did a few good runs, but nothing compared to that 29:31. Most if not all Junxia PB´s were done in China with the drug help.

GILT:

In regards to what made MJ so special:

When do you get a 10.0 100m runner training as a 400m endurance runner? Virtually anyone who gets down to the 10.0 range will be racing and training for 100/200 exclusively. MJ is the only one who comes to mind who took that raw speed and trained with fantastic speed endurance to create the greatest long sprinter of all time.

so can you give us more information about Ribeiros training Mr.Cabral, pleeeaaase.

to mr.cabral... wrote:

so can you give us more information about Ribeiros training Mr.Cabral, pleeeaaase.

Fernanda Ribeiro, did start training as a teenager by Manuel Barbosa, José Regalo´s coach and also the first coach of António Pinto. Then Fernanda claimed that the coach Manuel Barbosa work harder with her that she can hold, and since she passes for the senior category and his shape condition decreases, she change from coach, and since then the Fernanda´s Coach that´s João Campos.

Of course that with a so long career, it will take a longer post to describe his training in detail, But that´s easy to do a short resume with the essencials.

Fernanda follows the 1-2-3 regime as most of the portuguese runers, that´s 1=reps faster tah race pace; 2=reps closert to race pace, and 3=continous runs.

In the Fernanda case she do 2 workouts a week, never more tahn that, and some

AM- 30-40min/3.40 to 4:00 kilo pace in the morning. she misses that often.

PM-40min to 50min or workout (in the days she do workouts he do 30min warmup + workout + 10min cooldown

Examples of that twice a week workouts, that may be, ex:

1/5X400m/66-67sec rec=1minute + 5min rest+ 4X1000m/3:05-3:08 rec=3min.

2/10X200m/31-32sec rec=1min + 5X1000m/3:05-3:08 rec=3min.

As you see she mix-up both 1 and 2 (from the 1-2-3)regime in the same workout.

One more detail, she suffers tremendously from achilles tendon injuries - she misses a lot the training year round plan because she spends weeks and weeks with that injuries and she is no able to train.

No 100-200 miles a week, no special herbs, no special motivation, only to win money she loves a lot and she did a a lot why not be sincere - she doesn´t run for pleasure or passion, or country but for the profit.

This is the training she did for World and Olympic Championships?

Antonio,

Your passion for making up silly fantasies, especially to trash a great runner, makes me loose some respect for you.

First of all my example of 30:01 with 30 miles a week was simply an example. I did not say any runner did that. Where do you see that I said such a thing? I did not. The example was simply to go along with your fantasy of saying that some runner who is lazy and does nothing, is somehow more talented than Wang Junxia, who STILL has 2 women's world records, just because she ran the records in China where you don't personally approved.

It is too bad Ma Junren did not consult with you before the Chinese women ran their world records! Then you could have told them they should run their records in Portugal to meet your personal approval! Maybe if they also lived and trained there then that would help too! And also, of course, if they were Portuguese and not from China in the first place.

How silly, and who is making up the fantasties?

Just because Wang lived and ran and did her records in China that makes you think she was on drugs.

HA HA HA.

Now you said Fernanda Ribeiro had broken many world records, but you show only one, which was 14:36.5 for 5000 meters. Where are all the rest of them?

Now you say the same thing again, that I noticed you said before; "she still competes, and she is very lazzy to train and work hard." So you said this yourself, not me making it up in some fantasy. Anyway I was NOT comparing WJ with FR. As to world records and honors won, the comparison was more with Radcliff.

I agree FR has more honors won than both of them! WJ on the other hand has more powerful and long standing world records, and also honors won. I personally consider her the best because of this combination and also her long standing world records. No other runner has come close!

PR is not in the running with WJ and FR.

Now if you want to consider only honors won then I would agree she is the best for these things. But for combination and also long standing world records, 8:05.4 and 31:31.8, also 3:51.9 and 2:24, then WJ is by far the best woman runner ever and still is!

Also she is from China.

Well good for her. It doesn't matter where she is from, Portugal or China or Africa or even the U.S. She did what she did, and that is what counts.

Thanks for sharing ernanda Ribeiro's training program.

Making personal attacks is also a fantasy, which shows your argument has no merit.

It is easy to see what the runners did and can do.

There is no reason for any fantasy, about drugs, wheels, or performances or anything else.

Only when drugs and drug tests and banned, will the sport of athletics be drug free.

I.e., when drugs lose their importance, then drugs will no longer matter.

See, how you are Dunes ? My runner with the wheels that´s an example ALSO INDEED, i did start my example as Imagine...If i said imagine is because that´s not real, and if that´s real is a FANTASY, as your example is also a fantasy. But it i see that you have the right to come with an example that´s not real and then a fantasy to argue about your statements in Junxia defense, but when i did use the whells, what´s your reply? Antonio, we both know that´s a a fantasy - try to say that this example is a inadequate one, But if that´s an innadequate one and not valid, why do you use also a innadequate fantasist example for yourself ?

is this that i really don´t understand ! One fantasist examples works for you, but a fantasist example doesn+t work for me ????

You see how you are ? - please quotes when i said that "lazy and does nothing..." ? I say that´s lazy and that´s trains less than most of the runners from the same level and trains less than Junxia for sure, and i also said the number of weekly mileage 100-120km (if i remember). Do you consider 100-120km NOTHING?

In my posts about that subject i said that the WR is valid for the IAAF, what you want more, that i agree with something that i don´t agree ? If you uses the same idea for you and they consult you about those that after we knew that positive tests, you will consider all good perfromances and all good records. Mourith wasn´t been suspended etc etc.

The portuguese world records - we did not have too much - but those who that we the portuguse we did - no one is in the portuguese soil, as most of the chinese.

Fernanda Ribeiro also did the track 2000m WR 5kilos road record and road mile record. and I think that she also the junior 3000m world record (but i´m not sure but i have no interst to look, that´s your home work) ! You see that you are wrong once again ! and also even if i did change record for record(s) and add an "s" my argument is still correct. One record are one of the records.

Thanks for your opinion but i´m free to compare what the one want with what i want.

Now let me say one more thing before i go (to my training).

If you think that i love or have any respect for Fernanda Ribeiro by the fact that she is a portuguese one - you are wrong. Nor because she is portuguese, neither for her coach - that i think he is an idiot ! But simply facts are facts and she is a great runner

dunes runner wrote:

Just because Wang lived and ran and did her records in China that makes you think she was on drugs.

There are a LOT more reasons to think she was on drugs, and Antonio has mentioned several. Perhaps you haven't been reading very closely. Personally I can't believe anyone thinks she's clean.

Antonio,

You made the statement that Fernanda Ribeiro was lazy and didn't do much training. So I made the example of 30 miles a week and 30:01. Okay you don't like my example, even though this was for no specific runner. Okay then I will correct this to suit your fancy, even though it was my example and not yours, like your example with the wheels.

So example #1 I WILL CORRECT to Fernanda Ribeiro with 15-17kilos a day. No longer a fantasy!!! According to you. This makes her average to be 70 miles a week. Not so lazy, I think. Also not as much as 40km every day but not bad.

This comparison to be accurate needs to realize that Wang Junxia was doing this training in 1993 when she ran 8:05.4 and 29:31.8, also 3:51.9, but by the time of Atlanta she had been not training a long time, then training on her own IN THE U.S., and also not training 40km a day. Maybe her training this time was also the same as Ribeiro, the 70 miles a week.

Even Gebrselassie and Terget did not break their world record in Atlanta, also the conditions were not good for fast running. Even so, Wang Junxia won a gold medal and a silver medal. That is more than Ribeiro won at Atlanta!

I want to ask you a question now, Antonio.

Before, didn't you say that Carlos Lopes had been blood doping? Is this why you keep talking about blood doping like anyone can do it? Do you think Ribeiro was blood doping too? Since you know of some details of this method, can you tell me do you do this with no doctor and no medical intervention? I am interested to hear your knowledge about this.

I want to make sure in my messages that there is no fantasy, regardless how you make them in yours.

Dan Moriarity wrote:

dunes runner wrote:

Just because Wang lived and ran and did her records in China that makes you think she was on drugs.

There are a LOT more reasons to think she was on drugs, and Antonio has mentioned several. Perhaps you haven't been reading very closely. Personally I can't believe anyone thinks she's clean.

There is not one reason that shows she was on drugs.

To the contrary, EVERY reason shows she was able to accomplish what she did with no drugs.

And every method we know about Ma's runners that they used did not have anything to do with any drugs.

Also I want to say that this drug mentality is totally wrong, and comes from advertising that creates a weak thinking.

Listen to me about this.

You think there is some MAGIC PILL or magic drug that will make you faster or break records.

Really, you think so???

Why don't you look in some hospital and see how well all their magic pills are working!!!

Any pill or blood doping or some other "magic drug" only works for someone who is weak physical, or else as a placobo for weak thinking.

If you have oxygen in your blood of 100% then you cannot go higher than that! If you have 50% then a pill or drug can bring you up higher. HOWEVER you can do this better with natural means. Much better than with a pill or a drug, because you bring up the WHOLE SYSTEM.

This is is what makes me believe in the Chinese, and that the ones who are critical are just unaware of the truth -- BECAUSE of too much confidence and wrong thinking in magic pills and magic drugs from all the drug ads.

There is no other reason for this.

Wow, leave it to Dunes Runner to hijack this thread and take to the brink of absurdity.

Antonio, TRUST ME, don't bother arguing with Dunes Runner, it is a complete waste of time. Those of us who have been on LetsRun for a long time know this. This Loon Runner is well known for being as illogical they come. Occasionally he makes some good points, but then eventually ends up defending defenseless points with all sorts of twisted logic.

Really, Dunes Runner is probably ranked #1 all-time nut case of LetsRun. Ask any long time poster.

FOR EVERYONE ELSE

PLEASE CHECK OUT THE NEW THREAD THAT ANTONIO HAS STARTED ABOUT INTERMITTENT TRAINING. It is quite interesting and deserves comment. This thread has run its course, really it has. Renato and others have answered the question of how to improve one's thresshold. Lets all move on.

Lance

For that´s quite irrelevant what people thinks about Dunes. I never seen Dunes, i can´t say for sure that Dunnes is the one i think he is. But for me i don´t see Dunes. I see a human being that´s may be he is wrong about Junxia, but as long as he isn´t offensive or unpolite for me - that he didn´t, but some of the posters did - i´don´t see no special reason to give up to discuss to a person that the more inverosimile or ignorant that their ideas that are, he is serious. Let´s think that he is ignorant. Ther´s nothing wrong with ignorance. But he is not an idiot as some of you thinks. He have his own logic. Ruight now this is no more a discussion confined with Junxia or drugs, or that i try to prove to Dunes that i think that Junxia was on drugs. This is a discussion that transcends the bounds of Junxia or drugs. I did profit the occasion to pass some intersting information - as you did - about the use of chinese drugs, about chinese way to see the sport, and i did post about Fernanda, that some of you may have some interst to know that info. Besides, in my opinion, Dunes did improve a lot while our discussion goes on. First he did recognised that his arguments about fantasist examples that are also his own argumentation and his fault. He realises that drugs are just a subject of the profit of companies, and there are something more about drugs than a simple trading of products. He did realise that when he uses all that oriental/chinese practises as the herbs and kind products that he uses - this is also a commerce, may be not so big as MacDonalds or capitalist profit, but that´s still a profit interst the same as certain sport drugs.

Now, i think that Dunes did a step ahead. for a gut that early on said that drugs is not his concern - in his last post he ask me about self blood doping ! What a change ! Or course that or í´m an ignorant about the english language or he ask me that quetion as a insinuation, somthing that he wants to catch me in a trap. I think, but i´m not sure.

I will answer him as i also do, with my sincere opinion.

Now let me profit to add one more informative point to Dunes and you all. Dunes want to make me think that i´m a unique case of obssession about JUnxia drugs use. You know that i´m not since so many of you, for one reason or another you think the same. Thousands and thousands of people that are in the running scene thinks the same than me. But there are others that don´t as Renato is an example.

I know that Dunnes has some conmsideration for the portuguese runners and for the portuguese performances, and for the portuguese achievements. Lopes, Mamede, Rui Silva, Antonio Pinto etc etc. he also loves the way we train what i call the portuguese training method. But let me know you this. In Portugal ther´s a quite unanimity that Juxia did took drugs in the 29:31 WR. The dean of the portuguese coaches, 84 years old Mario Moniz Pereira - may be he is the great Icon of the coaches in the top level, since that Lydiard and many other they did died, the reputed one. Think about a coach that have more reputation in the world in the running distance events - than the pertuguese Moniz Pereira did produce in a single life - world and european records, marathon, 10000, 20kilos track, olympic gold, silver, bronze, world champs, WCCC winners ? All this by the sam eman-coach. Who in the world did more triumphs. Dunes you know who is the man i mention. Mario Moniz Pereira - nominate by the IAAF as the dean of coaches.

He is more compulsive than me to accuse Junxia. Recently he did a conference which the title is "doping in the running sport". Do you know about what he centered his long conference that passes in out portuguese TV ? Presicely about the 29:31 of Junxia.

May be you are a bit deceived about us the protuguese, about the coach of Lopes, Mamede, Domingos and Dionisio Castro, and head director of Rui Silva, and many, many others from the portuguese top, because the way you put your arguiments we may think that i´m the only one portuguese with a strong obssesion to argue aginst Junxia.

Just to let you know that the world reputed distance coach alive he also thinks that Junxia did that with drugs, as many millions we think the same - and that millions includes also Lopes, Mamede and me.

The number of people outside China who do NOT think Wang was doping, you can probably count with one hand.

The amount of HGH seized by Australian customs two years before Sydney was not just enough to dope one athlete; It was enough to dope the ENTIRE TEAM. This might have been swimming, but it was still systematic doping. The GDR all over again.

I want to honor that most people, seriously in the west, feel the same way about Antonio about the Chinese and their performances. Of course I know that the feeling is not just Antonio, and also that Antonio feels convinced his way, and is not trying to make up anything out of air, but sincerely feels convinced of the way that he does. So I will honor this, as his passionate conviction, and have no disagreement with such feelings, although my beliefs and feelings are different.

It is important to know that no one can express my feelings and my beliefs except me, and so no one else can know what I feel unless I say what I feel, and what I believe. No one else can say anything in the place of what comes from my own heart, mind, and that I type with my fingers. The same likewise goes for anyone else.

I want to see some reason why people can think and feel so completely convinced, yet at the opposite sides.

For myself, I do not know anyone of the Chinese camps and have not been there, and the same for probably everyone who accuses them of something. None of you have been there. So there is no one who can say for sure what they did with all the details and complete parts of their training and lifestyle. Everything we say is from our own personal beliefs, feelings and conjucture.

Certainly I have known of Moniz Pereira for a very long time, and his great accomplishments with the Portuguese runners, also conveying these methods to the rest of the world. This does not mean that I agree with everything that he says. I am a person, not a robot, and as such am capable of making my own decisions and thinking for myself. Also I do not just absorb and repeat what someone else tells me, or something or some ad that I see on tv, or what some columnist writes in a paper. My feeling is that it is important for every person to look, see, think, and to express personally what they feel are the best ways for this life.

I want to clarify farther my feeling as regards drugs and athletics. The drug issue in society is a major issue for me, as it is affecting all of humanity. This, to me, is a drug and humanity issue, but it is not an athletics issue. My interest in athletics is for training and performances only, and has nothing to do with any drugs. My interest for drugs in all of athletics is zero, and my interest in drugs anywhere or any time is also zero, with the exception that in society I see them causing great harm to all the populations of the world.

So I have concern for all the drug use in society. However, for me, this is not a concern any more special to athletics. My interest for athletics is for training and performance, and no concern for drugs or anyone using any drugs or anything like that. I don't care what anyone does in that sense, but admire more greatly those who know how to life and make the most of their lives, and also in athletics for training and performances.