Mr. Renato Canova: Could You Please Answer a Question About Effective Ways to Improve the Lactate Threshold?

"Can't see the dunes through the sand"

When Ondieki broke through the 27 minute barrier for 10,000m for the first time in 1993 it was met with some cynicism within the athletics world. 'He's on drugs' they cried, after all 27mins is a faster pace than the great Ron Clarke ran for his first 5k WR. Are we to believe its genuine?

BUT didnt Clarke himself reduce the 10k record by a quantum 40s in the 60s. Didn't he run an average of 13'49, faster than the hungarian legend Iharos ran for a 5k WR just 10 years before and faster also than Chataway managed when breaking Kuts WR for 5k.

Isn't it the natural evolution of things to run faster and faster, breaking barriers that once seemed improbable (though not impossible)?

When Geb & Bekele run sub 13min for their second 5k in a championship 10k should we sit back in awe or stand and accuse? After all, its faster than Moorcroft ever ran, isnt it?

But dont think that this hasnt always been happening. It has and long before EPO was around. It may ne naive to think that all records are clean but its pure folly to think that they are impossible times. Running faster and faster is not evidence of drug taking, taking drugs is!

Can someone tell me the best way to strengthen slow-twitch fibers?

Heres a point: The womens 10k is a very weak event in depth. Why?

1/ The 2nd fastest ever time came unpaced and unheralded and in the rain with no competition (O'Sullivan was 300m behind). Also, it was in a championship race with no financial incentive for fast times.

2/ The next 4 best times ever came in the one championship race again with no pacers and no financial incentives. Paris World Champs.

3/ The womens 10,000m has only been an olympic event since 1988, prior to 1984 the longest event was the 1500m. It is an event that is its infancy compared to the mens equivelent.

4/ I can recall NO staged, paced, WR attempts in the 10k with the exception (perhaps) of Junxia in 93. The only time on the lists (top 20) that was in a 'staged' event was Kristiansens Oslo time (30'13). See List below.

Consider what might have happened had Paula run a 10k in Oslo instead of rainy, windy Munich in August 2002 with Abera and Dibaba sharing the pacemaking duties. A conservative estimate would be 29'45", just 16" faster than her Munich time. Why is it incomprehensible that Junxia would be just 13" further ahead of her?

29:31.78 Junxia Wang CHN 09 01 1973 1 Beijing 08 09 1993

30:01.09 Paula Radcliffe GBR 17 12 1973 1 München 06 08 2002

30:04.18 Berhane Adere ETH 21 07 1973 1 Paris Saint-Denis 23 08 2003

30:07.15 Werknesh Kidane ETH 21 11 1981 2 Paris Saint-Denis 23 08 2003

30:07.20 Yingjie Sun CHN 19 01 1979 3 Paris Saint-Denis 23 08 2003

30:12.53 Lornah Kiplagat NED 01 05 1974 4 Paris Saint-Denis 23 08 2003

30:13.37 Huandi Zhong CHN 28 06 1967 2 Beijing 08 09 1993

30:13.74 Ingrid Kristiansen NOR 21 03 1956 1 Oslo 05 07 1986

30:17.15 Paula Radcliffe 1 Gateshead 27 06 2004

30:17.49 Derartu Tulu ETH 21 03 1972 1 Sydney 30 09 2000

30:22.48 Gete Wami ETH 11 12 1974 2 Sydney 30 09 2000

30:22.88 Fernanda Ribeiro POR 23 06 1969 3 Sydney 30 09 2000

30:23.07 Alla Zhilyayeva RUS 05 02 1969 5 Paris Saint-Denis 23 08 2003

30:23.25 Ingrid Kristiansen 1 Stuttgart 30 08 1986

30:24.36 Huina Xing CHN 25 02 1984 1 Athína 27 08 2004

30:24.56 Gete Wami 1 Sevilla 26 08 1999

30:24.98 Ejegayehu Dibaba ETH 21 03 1982 2 Athína 27 08 2004

30:26.20 Galina Bogomolova RUS 15 10 1977 6 Paris Saint-Denis 23 08 2003

30:26.42 Derartu Tulu 3 Athína 27 08 2004

30:26.97 Paula Radcliffe 4 Sydney 30 09 2000

30:27.13 Paula Radcliffe 2 Sevilla 26 08 1999

30:28.26 Yingjie Sun 1 Busan 08 10 2002

30:28.30 Werknesh Kidane 4 Athína 27 08 2004

30:31.55 Huina Xing 7 Paris Saint-Denis 23 08 2003

30:31.92 Lornah Kiplagat 5 Athína 27 08 2004

30:32.03 Tegla Loroupe KEN 09 05 1973 3 Sevilla 26 08 1999

30:37.68 Benita Johnson AUS 06 05 1979 8 Paris Saint-Denis 23 08 2003

30:38.09 Yanmei Dong CHN 16 02 1977 1 Shanghai 19 10 1997

30:39.41 Lixin Lan CHN 14 02 1979 2 Shanghai 19 10 1997

30:39.98 Lili Yin CHN 11 11 1979 3 Shanghai 19 10 1997

30:47.22 Zhaoxia Dong CHN 13 11 1974 4 Shanghai 19 10 1997

30:47.59 Sonia O'Sullivan IRL 28 11 1969 2 München 06 08 2002

30:47.72 Dongmei Wang CHN 03 12 1972 5 Shanghai 19 10 1997

30:48.89 Yoko Shibui JPN 14 03 1979 1 Palo Alto, CA 03 05 2002

30:50.32 Deena Kastor USA 14 02 1973 2 Palo Alto, CA 03 05 2002

30:51.81 Kayoko Fukushi JPN 25 03 1982 2 Busan 08 10 2002

30:52.51 Elana Meyer RSA 10 10 1966 1 London 10 09 1994

30:55.83 Shixiang Liu CHN 13 01 1971 6 Shanghai 19 10 1997

30:57.07 Liz McColgan GBR 24 05 1964 1 Hengelo 25 06 1991

30:57.21 Olga Bondarenko RUS 02 06 1960 2 Stuttgart 30 08 1986

30:57.70 Leah Malot KEN 07 06 1972 2 Heusden 05 08 2000

30:57.83 Lidiya Grigoryeva RUS 21 01 1974 3 Tula 03 08 2003

30:59.92 Merima Hashim ETH 1981 3 Heusden 05 08 2000

31:03.60 Marleen Renders BEL 24 12 1968 4 Heusden 05 08 2000

31:03.62 Kathrin Wessel GER 14 08 1967 1 Frankfurt-am-Main 30 06 1991

31:04.00 Lyudmila Biktasheva RUS 25 07 1974 3 München 06 08 2002

31:04.10 Jelena Prokopcuka LAT 21 09 1976 7 Athína 27 08 2004

31:04.34 Jane Wanjiku KEN 14 06 1979 1 Kobe 25 04 2004

31:04.49 Derbe Alemu ETH 1983 1 Uden 03 07 2004

31:05.57 Maura Viceconte ITA 03 10 1967 5 Heusden 05 08

anyone wrote:

Can someone tell me the best way to strengthen slow-twitch fibers?

run lots of miles at a variety of paces up to 5k pace.

Diego Marathona

Let´s forget for a moment the question that´s if Junxia took drugs or don´t and let´s just think about the fact that she did 29:31 in 1993.

First your mistake that´s to use an all time ranking. With this we may think that Junxia only did a run 30 seconds faster than Paula´s 30:01. But this is to use the results as manipulation. By take a look for the all time ranking and if we follow your arguments (that Paula might have something close to 29:45). But this is an untrue, Why? for 2 reasons: First you can´t relate real performances - 29:31 to Junxia - to hypothetic perfromances 29:45 for Radcliffe. But second and more important reason is that you can´t relate performances done in different periods. You can´t relate a 1993 performance to a 2002, a 9 years later result.

To have a real insight of what Junxia did WHEN she did the WR let´s use the all time ranking when she did that WR

29:31.78 Junxia Wang CHN 09 01 1973 1 Beijing 08 09 1993

30:13.37 Huandi Zhong CHN 28 06 1967 2 Beijing 08 09 1993

30:13.74 Ingrid Kristiansen NOR 21 03 1956 1 Oslo 05 07 1986

30:23.25 Ingrid Kristiansen 1 Stuttgart 30 08 1986

30:57.21 Olga Bondarenko RUS 02 06 1960 2 Stuttgart 30 08 1986

31:03.62 Kathrin Wessel GER 14 08 1967 1 Frankfurt-am-Main 30 06 1991

Now this is a real ranking that we may understand what Junxia did in that day.

She did a WR by 42 seconds. Now i can use the same arguments than you - she did a solo run, with no pacer help with no challenge competition, she did that in a national competition.

Despite that acoording some of you - Renato and Dunes - she is very talented runner i don´t think so.

You say that´s no surprise what she did, but she did run 10000m several occasions but she never did BEFORE or AFTER no more 10000m runs that are close to his 29:31 close to 30 seconds. She also never did a 5000m run faster than 15:00. Now in the second 5000m of that 10000m run she did 14:26 which would be not just 5000m WR by 22 seconds at that time (14:48 for Zola Budd) as the second 5000m would be Junxia 5000m PB (14:512.8 in 1996 by Junxia).

If you take a look to all runners that are close to Junxia performace - those that you use for the All time ranking and you classified the standard (category) of the performances of that runners, in 1500m, 5000m, and half marathon and marathon - most of them are of relate category, but Junxia 29:31 is out of any other performance in all other events - even for those that were distance events in the championship or olympics erlier on and that Junxia did also run in several occasions (1500m, 3000m, 5000m).

Now the same argument that may be most of you don´t agree with me.May be you think that Junxia is a good runner - but i don´t think so. I think that Paula Radcliffe or Ingrid Kristiansen are better than Junxia. Paula she is able to be close to Junxia 10000m performances, but bettrre in 3000m, 5000m and marathon than Junxia - with less traiuning volume than Junxia.

If you want to know the real talent of a runner relate to another one you need to see which of them trains less, not more. The one that trains less and do similar performances is the best one.

Fernanda Ribeiro that i know so well - 14:36,45 WR and 30:22.88 - olympic winner over Junxia and world champ 3 times, silver olympic, bronze olympic of course that she is a greater natural talent than Junxia. You may argue that Junxia did win some runs against the chinese boys. But if that´s true what you say that after join Ma Juren she did that 40kilos a day/hard training programme, then she is no good at all ! Meanwhile Fernanda Ribeiro did 63min in his race debut with 13 years old. That´s no mistake - 13 years old in Nazare Half Marathon. She winned over Rosa Mota an olympic marathon winner. Buit what´s more fantastic is that she did that with no training sessions. May be you don´t belive but she did that. Simply the perfdormance isn´t consider because according IAAF that´s illegal to run an half marathon before you are a senior runner. Then the result is not in the rankings.

But let me say more about this. She did all titles, but she is very lazzy - she never did more than 100-120kilos a week - may be in a exceptional week in a 20 years career she did more than 140kilos in rare occasions. I know that she is hardly convinced to train in the morning - she rests in bed untill 10:30 AM, and she hates to double. This is the reason that i don´t need to look to 2000millions chineese people to know female runners best than Junxia. But even if i imagine that Fernanda would be able to run 200 to 300kilos a week she would be able to run 29:31. Never. No way.

Wang Junxia ran 3:51.9 for 1500m and 8:05.4 for 3000m.

Isn't 8:05.4 faster than those who ran 8:22?

Or not.

Wang Junxia was also World Champion in the marathon.

I agree Fernanda Ribeiro is a fantastic runner.

But didn't Ron Clarke pull a Wang? ie Many many seconds faster than prev WR?

When Wang did her phenominal run, wasn't women's 10000m rather new on the international track scene?

When I was 20 I made some huge jumps in my times, despite training for a few years.

Why doesn't anyone mention Ingrid's huge 10000m jump? 40sec+?

You cannot PROVE that this was an illegal performance. (I still await the so called confession by Wang. Not some cheesy commercial web-page for wonder cures, please.)

Cheers

Skuj

She was never a world champ in the marathon...here's her PR. Pretty good.

2:24:07 Junxia Wang CHN 09 01 1973 1 Tianjin 04 04 1993

Guilt

More than to question 29:31 Junxia – this is already done – I want to use the Junxia case to do my opinion about what I consider a talent runner, male or female. In my opinion in long distance events, if you take 2 runners with similar performances standards, the one that have more talent is the one that trains less – volume or intensity or both.

In this my line of conclusion, if that´s true that Junxia did what she did simply based in that monster training programme, she isn´t so talent as most of you say. In that my conclusion Paula Radcliffe or Fernanda Ribeiro or any other that trains less than Junxia they are more talented than Junxia, then the myth that´s to think that statistical probability that Junxia is very talent because among 200 billion people ther´s super talent is also a weak argument.

If te Chinese women, to do what they did they needed to train so hard that´s because they weren´t such great talents. the one that trains less is the talented one.

But concerning your post arguments. For me nothing that you say about Ron Clark or anything else is related/compared with Junxia´s outstanding 29:31. Of course that Ron Clark did 27:39.89 WR, but he also did 27:49.4 and also 27:54.0. Besides he also did 13:16WR. If you use that simple and empiric system that´s to calculate the 10000m 2X5000m PB+50-60seconds, then you have for Ron Clark 2X13:16+50-60sec=26:32+60s=27:32. Yes I believe that a 13:16 may do 27:30. He isn´t the only one to do have that 2X5000m+60s ratio and since the long distances that improved in the recent years, few years later Belgian Emiel Puttemans and Viren and many other broke Ron Clark performances.

Now use the same operation to Junxia 29:31 calculation based in his 14:51 5000mPB.

Hard to believe what she did that knowing that she did the last 5000m of that 29:31 in 14:26. If that´s an outstanding performance, never seen in the world of athletics our first cool analytical reaction that´s to doubt, not to accept in ignorance. In my opinion both of all the rest of the arguments - her talent or her training/massage/life style/motivation, that aren´t enough to justify that performance and that doesn´t fit in my logic and running knowledge. I´ve seen nothing compared to that. May the Mexico City Bob Beamon 8.90 long jump that we know that is done in altitude that helps the jumps.

Antonio, you can't argue a runners guily based on her performance. WR holders are freaks of nature who train very hard (and well) and it is the nature of things that times get faster.

If you want to argue her guilt, talk about drug tests, avoidence, coach-history, culture or morality etc. Her times alone do not show shes drugged. Who are we to decide the limits of human ability?

Here's a real quote from a newspaper from ~1912. "The world record for the mile was set today, the time was 4 min 12.8 seconds, the athlete's name is Walter George and in all likelihood this time will never be beaten."

How naive of him!

can you give some more infos about Ribeiros training, classic 1-2-3 system?

Diego

If so, why you also argue based in her performances and other runner´s perfromances to conclude that she is clean? Or, may be you are allow to use the same kind of arguments to base your point that i don´t?

I´m not able to decide the limits of the human ability. You are right, but this is not the limits of the human ability, that´s the limits of that one particular limited runner, that i know very well what are their limits in all runs except that one.

Junxia performance is accept as a good one according IAAF rules. But you see, sometimes we do lots of mistakes, as that journalist did in 1912 about the mile record.

If all the people thinks as you think and no one thinks as i think about Junxia, the drug tests would never been a procedure, Why to use that if the human limits of the human ability, we can decide that? And with so, today we would have 9.6 in 100m by Ben Johnson, Marion Jones would be the olympic winner for 100m, 200m and high jump, the steeple record would be not 7:53 but 7:45 by a marroco runner, and Mohamed Mourith would be still winning cross runs, and Cathal Lombard would be done 27:00 in the 10000m, and the master Edy would keep winning road runs in America. If actually that doesn´t exists that´s because some years ago, a few ones like me we didn´t believed in some performances, and the some substances were considered illegal and they start doing drug tests. If people thinked like you. there haven´t been drug tests - why so if we may beleive in all perfrromances, after all, the human limits we can´t decide...you said.

Antonio Cabral wrote:

Diego

If so, why you also argue based in her performances and other runner´s perfromances to conclude that she is clean? Or, may be you are allow to use the same kind of arguments to base your point that i don´t?

The burden of proof lies with the accuser, not the defendent.

If people thinked like you. there haven´t been drug tests - why so if we may beleive in all perfrromances, after all, the human limits we can´t decide...you said.

This is wrong! I welcome drug tests, just as i welcome gender tests (why do you not accuse Junxia of being a man?) BUT i beleive in 'innocent until proven guilty'. Drug tests didnt come about because people like you doubted athletes ability. They came about because athletes suffered the side effects and some died.

I will admit that a positive test from Junxia would not surprise me as much as one from Paula or Ndereba or Kristensen or indeed one from a friend of mine who runs a 3hr marathon BUT that's not proof.

Diego, In your posts you always miss something...About this yoiur sentence you miss 2 things. You are clever to take the arguments to a logic that is no used in this context.

One thing that you miss is that we aren´t in a court, or something similar. We are simply in LRC to post our own ideas. Thus your sentence of the burden of the proof isn´t used here.

Second thing that you miss is that i never accused Junxia. I said that IN MY OPINION i have no doubts that she is doped, what´s different. I also said that according the IAAF rules the 29:31 is a valid performance. It may be for you, for millions of you, but not FOR ME, and i say why i think so. This is the level of discussion that i did enter, not a court judgement. In daily live situation i judge according my own opinion, i don´t judge according legal or factual proof - the same as you for sure.

Or once again don´t you want to permit me do the same exercise that you did or that - to emit an opinion about Junxia 29:31.

In part that´s true, but someway you are wrong again. That´s right that extreme cases as death turn the focus attention for that facts. But if they didn´t suspect that the reason of that death may be the doping use, but any other reason - a natural heart attack, or just the excess of activity, or an excess of food etc etc - they haven´t conclude that doping use that´s wrong, and if you read the IOC or any other drug organisation they say that subtances are allowed, not because that´s dangerous to the life or whatever BUT because that the use certain substances and other uses that improves the your shape condition artificially and that ables you to do performances that otherwise you willn´t be able to do.

Those Chinese women never ran comparable times on any track other than Beijing. There is a simple explanation for this.

The track was some way short of 400 metres.

Wrong. IAAF has to approve the track before any world records can be ratified.

[quote]Antonio Cabral wrote:

..."that subtances are allowed"...

quote]

I wanted to say ...."that substances aren´t allowed"...

Not Exactly wrote:

Wrong. IAAF has to approve the track before any world records can be ratified.

I don't believe the track was 400m whether it was supposed to be measured or not.

There are different kinds of talent. If you have woman runner A with great physical talent who runs 30:01 running 30 miles a week then sure you have a great physical talent.

Then you have runner B who trains 40 km a day for much of the year then runs 29:31.8. Who is the better runner? Well runner B is of course!!!! She ran faster! And also has more honors, championship medals, championship races won, faster times, World Records!!!!

So what is the difference here and what talent is this??? There is the mental talent to have more tenacity, to focus more on one's ONE TRAINING AND RACING (not holding up stupid signs in a stadium), eating holistically, massage, and not something slap stick with creams and all in a parlor but historally for invigoration and naturalization of the system. The Chinese have this system for thousands of years and it is part of their culture.

Wang Junxia accomplished all of these things, thus she was and is the greatest talent for women who has existed so far.

You might think Radcliff is some talent in some ascept, certainly NOT in many others. Fernanda Ribeiro I agree was a super amazing runner and competitor! Much better, in my opinion, than Radcliffe.

You yourself have stated that Fernanda did not have the talent for putting in the training. Thus certainly she ran VERY well for the training she did but, perhaps, did not make the most of herself. And you could see this by looking at her physically.