Mr. Renato Canova: Could You Please Answer a Question About Effective Ways to Improve the Lactate Threshold?

I would just like to re-emphasize her epic "feat" at this meet in '93.

September 8th: 29:31.78

September 11th: 3:51.9

September 12th: 8:12.2

September 13th: 8:06.1

So we have a huge WR In the 10k (and a 20+ second record in the 5k on the second half), then 3 days later betters the old WR in the 1500m. Then the next day, a 10+ second WR in the 3k, then the very next day, another 6 seconds off the one day old record. This is like a guy today running 12:55+12:15 10k splits for a time just over 25:00. Then three days later going about 3:20, the next day under 7:10, then 7:04 a day later. I ain't buying it. Incorrect starting lines, not enough laps (for the 10k), short track (for some reason this seems the most likely to me), or drugs. Sorry, but you don't run these monumental times and then not ever come within even 3-4% of a single one of those times ever again.

You talk shit[quote]Antonio Cabral wrote:

dunes runner wrote:

Antonio,

When you talk about wheels and 24 laps, you must know you are dreaming.

Dunes, i´m not dreaming, i ALSO WITNESSED 10000m runs with 24 laps. Once it happens with me, and in the end when a tem fellow calls my attention for it, despite that my performance have no interest (a poor one) i need TO DISCUSS and to claim to the jury that they are wrong, they don´t want to consider that my performance illegal !

Ok, i may admit that the wheels are a good example, but see, i´ve seen Portuguese records done in short track - 394 meters track, i´ve seen a world record in a marathon short distance, i´ve seen so many things. Once in the 1972 olympic games in the fencing sport, someone did use something similar to my wheel example. in the sabre competition he used a special electric trick to win the fights without touch the adversary. Of course that the public and the jury they didn´t knew that, only close to the in the end they did understand. Of course that this man did go out for illegality. That´s what i want to try to make you understand - that sometimes there are illegal means that we ignore and that may be condemn.

You didn´t answer me about my question - if the drugs in the sports are a company profit matter, then what´s the company that sells self-blood doping - or you aren´t aware that self blood doping it exists simply because you never saw that, you never witnessed?

Dunes, both your ideas that you never witness then that´s not your concern - or that you aren´t able (or don´t want) to take position, and second that you are only concern with athletics and not with drugs, with all respect, both seems to me inadequate.

The use of drugs - or any illegal mean to improve the performance as blood doping - is consider by international community as against the rules and a crime as a murder or a robbery - that´s not me or you that we consider - that´s the law/the athletics rules - then that are an athletic ISSUE and concern, that´s not out of the athletics, as you try to say. Also a crime is not a athletic manifestation but you are aware as a citizen that is not good, and you side you have a negative opinion of that facts, despite that´s not athletics.

But have you witness that hard Chinese training that you base your arguments to say that Junxia may be have done what she did drug clean ? I know that you respect and you considers Carlos Lopes or what he did - also based in what he trained how he trained, but have you witness his trainings ? Then why, in one case (drugs hypothese) you confine/limit your judgement based in what you witness, and in another cases you make your opinion and judgement based in what you have read and you aren´t a direct testimony?

Why so, because you are a coach expert ? Then let the medicine experts decide and make the opinions about if the drugs that works or that don´t. In several situations i think like you - out of the mainstream. But i don´t want that my outsider opinion changes to a be the mainstream. I guess that in most of the cases you aren´t able to prove that a drug is not effective to improve the performance.

PS - Don´t forget to answer my question; what´s the company that sells or make money with some drug types, as the self-blood. Thanks

Chinese food for thought,

I know this doesn’t answer the 1993 amazing performances nor do I think they were entirely clean, but a good example if the kind of discipline the Chinese can display look at the Shaolin Monks. They are up at 4am, train and mediate all day, from such young ages. Have you seen the strength and flexibility they display? Apply that to athletics – you get super fast times.

Also wasn’t the turtle blood tested by German scientists and it found the same properties of EPO? To me this doesn’t count as cheating but amazing use and knowledge of their natural environments. Remember Chinese medicine/natural remedies has been around for many more years then western medicine.

Many on here think that the Chinese women were on drugs.

Many people also think that Flo Jo was on drugs.

But hello, the reality is the same: Until someone can prove that they were doping they hold the records. At this stage in athletics it does not matter it you were on drugs or not. It only matters if you get caught. Sure it is sad. But as long as money is involved, people will be greedy and do whatever it takes to get it. This is true in all major sports today. Thus the public gets the idea that if you are on top in a sport you might be using drugs. If it came out today that Haile or Lance had tested positive for drugs, not many would be shocked or say "I never would have thought Lance or Haile was on drugs" .

It is the power of big business.

Antonio,

Sure I know many strange things happen all over the world (and in this forum hehe). That doesn't mean they happen everywhere, so we have to look at each case individually.

In the case of the track, Wang Junxia's 10000 meters was televised, so everyone knows it was 25 laps. And the track has been measure so it is known that the track is 400 meters. And they didn't rebuild the track overnight. Okay. So Wang Junxia ran the 25 laps of the 400 meters track, which is 10000 meters.

I see you are coming up with many possibilities for something to not happen, that did happen. Okay I can see your possibilities are feasible BUT is that what really happened. No. The race was 25 laps, the track was 400 meters, she didn't have wheels on her feet, and no saber or electronic device on her arms.

So that's a lot of speculation, but what happened is she ran the 10000 meters and broke the old record, which is excellent!

You ask me about the blood doping situation, so I understand you agree all the other drugs have a PROFIT motive that drives them. And I expect you think some doctor does the blood doping for free? Or an athlete just figures this out in the living room while watching TV and does this with no doctor or medical intervention? Well then maybe every single person does this? You must have more knowledge of this because I don't know of any athlete who just sits watching TV and then gets up to blood dope for awhile while going to the kitchen for a snack!!!!

However let's assume this method is correct, and done with no doctor or other kind of profit motive from drugs, the way they make a huge profit with selling epo. For example I know where some physicians charge more than $1300 for one shot like this to the elderly, which is very big profit for them!!!!!!!

Sure I am aware that blood doping exists.

But it does not concern me.

I am satisfied that using natural means is the very best, and no medical intervention can ever come close to this.

From my own experience of more than 30 years using herbs, similar to the Chinese, I am convinced the results are FAR SUPERIOR to that of western medical intervention, which has very POOR results indeed. Also the Chinese have many thousands of years experience using these natural means, whereas I have only 30, so they have much better access and knowledge than we do.

If you think some single person sitting in a living room and then thinks "okay I will blood dope tonight" can create all this false hysteria then you are welcome to your opinion.

However it is rather obvious to me that such hysteria and bad thinking is created by the drug companies for their profits.

I am not concerned with such things BECAUSE I am not concerned with their profits!!!

Now anyone who buys into their hypocrisy is simply helping them to get richer, while more people get sick and die, but this is a DRUG ISSUE -- not an athletics issue.

I have no interest to make any drug companies richer.

You see.

My interest is for athletics, training and performance.

Then you bring up about crimes, like murder and robbery, to which I will say this. Murder, robber, causing physical harm to another, macdonald's, american food, drug companies, false advertising, drug tests and promotion, crazy thinking = very bad.

On the other hand, training, using good diet, sleep, massage, herbs, natural eating, mountains, clean air, clean water, focus on self, i.e. what we can do, not what someone else did, etc = very good.

I want to comment regarding Wang's 10000 meter record and her splits.

The prior record of 30:13 was not very good compared to what women can do. Let's say it was not as good as Ron Clarke when he ran 13:16. Then we have 2 runners in the same race who finish a 10000 meter race almost a minute faster than Clarke, with the last half 18 seconds faster than his record for 5000 meters!!!!

Astounding!!!

Not possible???

Sure it is possible. Now we know this is possible, and many runners have run faster than Clarke. Likewise the 30:13 for women was not as good as the 13:16 run by Clarke. So it was not impossible for someone to smash that record!!

Now today we can see the 10000 meter times for women are still weak.

This is because we see by the performances and capabilities of the runners, that many can run under 30 minutes for the 10k and, yet, still only 1 runner has!!!! So the times are not matching the capabilties of the runners. No surprise if we all of a sudden have 6 or 10 more runners under 30 for the 10k!!!

This would be a normal and expected result.

The only and PRIMARY THING that has stopped this progress the last 10 years is the stupid and worthless hysteria and profit motives for the drugs.

However I am glad to see many runners are ignoring that hysteria and focusing again on running faster, as they were before the signs were first held up for intimidation of competitors.

Secondly let's compare the women's performances with the men's. Wang's 29:31.8 is 12.1 percent slower than the men's. Without even looking at the other events, most people know this is a much bigger gap from men's to women's performances than is normal!!!!

Thus Wang's 29:31.8 is not a top record for a woman's capabilties. The record should be much faster, certainly under 29 minutes. This is also the reason Wang was able to finish so quickly, because the run was not extended for her, as was her 3:51.9 for the 1500 meters with Qu running faster.

The crucial point you miss is that while many have run faster than Ron Clarke, they have done it numerous times and all over the world. If Geb ran 26:30, and then hovered around 27:30 for the rest of his life, there would be ample reason to suspect something strange happened when he ran 26:30. The case for doping is further bolstered by the number of outstanding performances that were never again duplicated.

The point you miss is that those performances were not all that outstanding, compared to what could be!

Read up.

In any case not being able to duplicate previous performances happens to most all runners. What about Paula Radcliffe who ran 2:15 in London, then dropped out at 2:26 pace in Athens. Now she ran 2:17 in London again. Do you find that strange?

The problems that occurred in Ma's camp and the reasons it fell apart are VERY well known.

dunes runner wrote:

In any case not being able to duplicate previous performances happens to most all runners. What about Paula Radcliffe who ran 2:15 in London, then dropped out at 2:26 pace in Athens. Now she ran 2:17 in London again. Do you find that strange?

The problems that occurred in Ma's camp and the reasons it fell apart are VERY well known.

Paula has run 2:17 numerous times. She ran 2:17 yesterday despite cramping and without pacing. She would've had a shot at 2:15 without cramping and with male pacemakers, like she did when she ran 2:15.

What problems occurred in Ma's camp? I'm not aware of them.

Really, so you measured it, then?

...with drugs.

Of course not. Here we see the mentalith present in organizations like MLB and other places that coddle CHEATERS.

No wonder we have such crime and filth, when "it doesn't concern" people.

You are clearly without concern, then, for your own sport, if you have no care for what happens at the highest level.

I hope your competitors start doping, and then you can run against machines who beat you no matter what.

Then you might care.

Your ignorance is hilarious and you are in so far over your head debating with Antonio Cabral, a Portugues coach with decades more experience that you will ever have.

A good day for American long running with Culpepper 4th in Boston on a very hot day for marathoning. Great job.

All this is like that story that Lee Bong Ju did 4 x 1 mile in 4:30 the morning of the Boston marathon at 6 a.m.

It makes for a nice story, and it reinforces the point that the Chinese and Japanese are tough, but it doesn't mean it's true.

Actually, it is stupid beyond belief to do 4 x 1 mile in 4:30 or 3 x 5K in 15:30 the day before (or of) a big race.

Dunes, you have proven beyond the shadow of a doubt that you are possibly the single most ignorant, stupid human being to ever post on the subject of distance running. It has been a misfortune to read your nonsense, and your antiquated attitude about drug use in sports is quite similar to the filth that pervades baseball's "10 day drug suspension." God willing, we will never have someone of your bonafied stupidity running any high level of track and field drug enforcement, and, hopefully, the Chinese "records" and all other similar hocus pocus nonsense will be erased for the fraudulent crimes against sport that they are.

Sir Lance-alot wrote:

Are we to believe that in a matter of 5 days, Wang CLEANLY and LEGITIMATELY ran 3:51, 8:06, 8:12, and 29:31?????

I think Wang was capable of running under 29:00.

Her 10000 meters in Bejing was the only one she ran seriously in peak condition for time.

Consider her 1500 meters was 3:51.9 whereas Kristianson who ran 30:13 had a fastest 1500 meters of 4:06 or so.

Wang Junxia could probably also run around 14 minutes for 5000 meters.

Now consider the women's marathon is 1.084 times the men's record.

This means the 5 and 10k track times are still very weak.

There is no question the women's 5k and 10k track times should be and will soon be under 14 and 29 minutes respectively.