Mr. Renato Canova: Could You Please Answer a Question About Effective Ways to Improve the Lactate Threshold?

bosco wrote:

I know someone who was at the 1993 WCh where the Chinese women shocked the world. He told me that just 2 days before the 10k, he saw Ma and his runners warming up and getting ready to do a workout. He asked them what they are doing, and expected to hear about a light tune-up, maybe some strides or something. Instead, Ma responded that they were doing 3 x 5k in 15:30 with a short rest. The guy was shocked at giving such a demanding workout right before the world games. He asked them why they were doing so much. Ma said the world games mean nothing, that the Olympics were their sole focus.

Think about this:

3 x 5,000m at 15:30 with short rest. 15:30 is a very good RACE time for some women runners, almost at the top elite level (15:00 is there). 3 repetitions at this pace? This is like 3 x 13:30 for men. If it is possible, there must be reasonable suspicion.

Renato

One more point about what you refer.

Firs tlet me first point out that the Sergey-Renato coach/runner relationship that´s not my business, as I see things, this is a private business in between you and him– and I have nothing to say in this context.

But since you send me a post about that subject, permit me that I comment your post because that´s public and I also cross your information with an interview that Sergey did to a Portuguese newspaper “A Bola” in January 2005, when he did run Madeira Island S. Silvester road run – that he wined. In that interview Sergey says the same that you said “that he felt hard or impossible to adapt to your own training programme”, but he adds more: that if we take a look to the best performances that he did – most of that is from the past -1997 to 2002: and also he did ECCC wins before your advise and also good in WCCC – before you coach him, then, without your training coach, and since he tried to follow your programme for the track something is going wrong – he did a poor result in the 3000m final in the last indoor world champs and also a mediocre 14:09 in last Olympics. Then he thinks that your programme, may be that´s very good but doesn´t work on him, and since he is very motivate to have some track improvement (sub 13:00 ad also 10000m ER) and that when he trains along your lines he feels that he haven´t been successful – or because he isn´t able to complete your training programme or because the training effect haven´t been the desired effect - he wants to try by his own. He also said that you haven´t dedicate the time enough to coach him because you take too much attention to the Kenyans/Qataris in detriment of Sergey.

My comment is that - sometimes - an European, even the best European runner – as I considers that Lebid he is - you are right - Sergey temperament isn´t like a someone 200millions “blind-faith” Oriental/Chinese or someone humble Africans – may be Europeans we aren´t able to train in strong obedience – a question of individualism, no matter what´s the coach reputation or good training plan. Up to you to consider. This is also the reason I believe that China and all Asia that´s a good good profit market in the future, no doubt, and we Europeans we aren´t no more.

Mr.Canova, WAng Junxia admitted that she used drugs in an interview with the BBC, i think this is enough evidence.

But now that´s enough. This isuue end for me. May be Renato he doesn´t remember that no more, he is too busy travelling, helping their runners etc -, but in the past i did share a few personal e-mails with Renato and i did promise him never talk or discuss with him about drugs - because i think he is sincerely, and since i´m a man of honour i still keep my promise, or i will argue with him about this drug issue.

Bosco

Drugs helps us to be able to do uncredible activity and energy - uncredible workouts, uncredible warmups, even - easy and "weak" world records, junior uncredible pefromances.

Drugs that doesn´t helps only PB´s, promotes also the ability to train fast.

Junxia that´s JUST less 45sec faster than Igrid Performance.

Do i belive that Clean? i do believe with a bike !

Didn't Lebid run 7:35 PB and 13:10 PB under Renato? Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's a big result.

this has nothing to do with what you are talking about .

but, forgive me for asking anyway.

could you give me a brief overview , of Komens childhood, and when he started running?

Antonio Cabral wrote:

Do i belive that Clean? i do believe with a bike !

Antonio: I live in a hilly area. I seriously think I could not ride,on a bike, a 30:00 10K.

I was not implying that the records were clean via proving that they work hard. As everyone knows, the most important aspect of drug use is an ability to recover from rigorous training, and workouts like that, just 2 days before running fast races, suggest drug use. I was simply offering a story.

I normally do not like the argument that just because someone runs faster than everyone else, they were doped. However, in this case, the records were SO far beyond other competitors at the time, that I find it hard to believe those times are legitimate.

If Wang Junxia had admitted to drug use, then the case is closed. No more arguments.

Antonio, I agree with the other guy in asking if you could speak about your conversations with Komen.

Halbert

You may ask that to Renato or Lebid, not me. As i said this is not my deal.

The relationship coach/runner that´s something i consider private domain and a personal relationship, not public, and for me that privacy that´s sacred.

I simply make reference to what the Renato and Lebid they turn on public - in this site, in the IAAf site (ááSaturday 9 April 2005) and what Lebid said in an interview to a portuguese newspapper from early January 2005 that "ááLebid confirms change of coach" and that "ááAfter the Athens Olympics I changed my coach. Now I am guided by the 33-year-old Igor Lyscinski, who is the husband of Irina Liscinskaia (winner in two important meetings last summer in Ostrava and Bergen). In just a few months he changed my training methods,” concluded Lebid".

http://www.iaaf.org/news/Kind=2/newsId=29079.html

Komen he is a very polite and humble man.

I did talk with Daniel Komen in the occasion of 1999 Seville World Champs, and also in the year 2000 (i guess) in Vilamoura-Portugal in the occasion of WCCC in portuguese soil. Komen didn´t compete in WCCC, but as he was simply try a come back and recovering from an injury then he profit the occasion to travel and profit to train with some runners of the Kenyan team.

I don´t remember that detail but i think that he said that he doesn´t come from the same tribe than most of the kenyans (Masai - i guess) and that he did some more studies than an average kenyan of his age. He also told me that when MacD. died suddently he suffered a lot - a big loose for him. With KimMD he used to train in the south of England - Cornwall. Kim group included Bob Kennedy also.

He also said that he was the faster 5000m runner that didn´t win an olympic medal (up to that time).

Now, about his training, he points out 2 main reasons for his sucess:

1/140 kilos weekly average (20 kilos a day).

2/2 daily sessions (6:00 AM and 4:00 PM) each one consists of 30-40min of outdoor continuous runs - all kind of terrain, from grass to cinder to road -, that run it starts in a very easy pace and after some minutes the intensity goes up to threshold pace and soon to a fast pace intensity up to a "tempo run" - really very intense in the last 20min.

2 workouts a week. Most of the workouts are mile, 1200m, 800m or 400m repeats.

He never did long runs, rarely more than that 40min.

He did a positive test for cafeine.

He trained very softly when he tries to come back from the injury.

thank you for the info on Komen .....and your time.

Antonio Cabral wrote:

I believe that The Wang Junxia 10000m WR, is unbeatable. No woman will be able to break that 29:31.78 ? done in 1993 in Beijing (not a coincidence that´s in Chinese soil). Oh, yes, I believe that will one day a woman will break that ? with the same kind of potent drugs ?or even more potent - than Wang Junchia did or running in a bike. With a bike I believe that Paula Radcliff or any other woman will break that one day, but runnig clean, I don´t believe.

Multiplying the men's 10k WR, times the women's marathon record, divided by the men's marathon record, gives the equivalent of a 28:26 10k for a woman.

26:20 X 2:15 '/. 2:05 = 28:26

Antonial Cabral, based on your opinion of Wang Junxia, what is your opinion of Paula Radcliffe and the impossibility of the times she has run -- without drugs??

Or would you say she definitely has used more drugs than Ma's runners. What is your opinion of this?

Just to clear up a few things about Komen – he trained usually 3 times day

6am tempo run

10am intervals (fartlek/hills or track) and

4pm recovery run

He did run long up to 20 km

(I did this with him in 1995)

Yes, when Kim died it affected him. The whole training structure fell apart, and all the top athletes went their own way. Komen tried to set something up in his home town but never the same.

When did Komen get busted for drugs, and for what drug??

He is Kalajin (excuse the spelling) the tribe where most top Kenyans come from.

Regarding John Ngugi. The reason he was never the same after the drug tester turned up on his door step unannounced demanding a sample, which John said no to (as would anyone in his situation if they knew what really happened). I saw him in mid 1995 just when his appeal was finally going thought (remember he missed 2-3 years of training/racing). He was over weight and had not run at all, guessing he would never race again. So he started training, and as a way to “catch up on lost time” he was running up to 30km AM and PM. His knees could not handle it after such a long period of no training and kept getting injured – it had nothing to do with him not being good without drugs

Komen tested positive for caffeine (I believe in 1996).

He had a genetic anomaly that caused the positive test, apparently to the effect that his ingesting chocolate or coffee set off his caffeine levels sky high. Obviously this was not a serious offense. Caffeine is a stimulant but nowhere near helpful to performance as EPO or a steroid.

Obviously, you and Antonio are highlighting different points of his training.

I agree with everything that Antonio and Racer1(both of you, GREAT posts) said about the Chinese female runners: there is NO WAY their world records are clean. NO WAY.

Renato, you are just wrong on this one, I would bet my life on it.

How ON EARTH could they produce those female times, but not do the ANYTHING in men's distance running???? Name ONE male Chinese international distance star. You can't do it. Whenever one sees a disparity like that between the performances of the sexes within a country, and there is no good explantion for it, you know something is sour. And China is a country that used to penalize famlies for female births(and WORSE.....), or reward families for males. In short, China has NOT been a country where female rights are highly respected (things have changed a little bit for the better). Doping them to the max would not be considered unethical I am sure.

And that is even more of a reason to believe in the East African runners, because they now dominate Men's AND women's distance running. And their women are coming "late to the game." They've only fairly recently been given wider chances to compete for their countries, and are now doing so more en masse.

There is only one point I disagree with Antonio on: the possiblity of clean 29:30 by a women. I think it is quite possible. But it won't be a chinese women, it won't be Paula Radcliffe, but it will be an East African women. It will be a female version of a Tergat or a Bekele or a Geb. A female version of one of them will do it, and there IS a female version of them out there, I am sure.

To add to Racer1's points:

** At the around same time the female Chinese distance runners were setting the world on fire, the female Chinese swimmers were setting WR's left and right TOO. But then they got busted for drugs and quickly disappeared from the international scene also.

Renato and others, I STRONGLY recommend you read the below linked article, to refresh your memories if you need to. It details the Chinese womens' very clear strategy of using drugs that could not be tested for, but eventually they got caught for BOTH STEROID AND HUMAN GROWTH HORMONE use. You don't think their runners' did the same, or were using EPO before tests finally improved? Of course they were. Here is the article:

http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/dept/coachsci/swimming/drugs/wcchina.htm

And here is a refresher on the Chinese times in running. Note the following about these performances:

*** The years:

early to mid 90's, when their female swimmers were also suddenly and miraculously dominating sports, but were found to be ON DRUGS

*** the locations:

Nearly ALL in China, where their were likely no drug tests, and even the times themselves could be manipulated

**** Where were their male counterparts on the men's all-time lists??? NOT A SINGLE ONE CAN BE FOUND.

ALL-TIME PERFORMANCE LISTS:

1500 Metres

Mark   Wind Athlete Nat Birth Pos Venue Date

03:50.5 Yunxia Qu CHN 1 Beijing 11 09 1993

03:51.0 Bo Jiang CHN 1 Shanghai 18 10 1997

03:51.3 Yinglai Lang CHN 2 Shanghai 18 10 1997

03:51.9 Junxia Wang CHN 2 Beijing 11 09 1993

03:52.5 Tatyana Kazankina URS 1 Zürich 13 08 1980

03:53.9 Lili Yin CHN 3 Shanghai 18 10 1997

03:54.0 Paula Ivan ROM 1 Seoul 01 10 1988

03:54.0 Lixin Lan CHN 4 Shanghai 18 10 1997

03:54.2 Olga Dvirna URS 1 Kyiv 27 07 1982

03:54.5 Ling Zhang CHN 5 Shanghai 18 10 1997

03:55.0 Tatyana Kazankina CHN 1 Moskva 06 07 1980

03:55.0 Lixin Lan CHN 1h2 Shanghai 17 10 1997

03:55.1 Yanmei Dong CHN 6 Shanghai 18 10 1997

Almost all of those times are basically from TWO MEETS(Beijing '93, and Shanghai '97) IN CHINA!!!! ABSURD!!! And the other non-Chinese times?? From the other era and region of hard-core female doping: Eastern Bloc in the early '80's ( I suppose the Romanian time COULD be clean.....but who knows).

3000 meters:

Mark   Wind Athlete Nat Pos Venue Date

08:06.1 Junxia Wang CHN 1 Beijing 13 09 1993

08:12.2 Yunxia Qu CHN 2 Beijing 13 09 1993

08:12.2 Junxia Wang CHN 1h2 Beijing 12 09 1993

08:12.3 Yunxia Qu CHN 2h2 Beijing 12 09 1993

08:16.5 Linli Zhang CHN 3 Beijing 13 09 1993

08:19.8 Liyan Ma CHN 3h2 Beijing 12 09 1993

08:21.3 Liyan Ma CHN 4 Beijing 13 09 1993

08:21.4 Gabriela Szabo ROM 1 Monaco 19 07 2002

08:21.6 Sonia O'Sullivan IRL 1 London 15 07 1994

08:21.8 Lirong Zhang CHN 5 Beijing 13 09 1993

Again, where are ALL the Chinese times from??? FROM ONE MEET IN CHINA!!! They could never reproduce those times again outside China???

5000 meters ( I only list the Chinese athletes here, 2nd and 6th all time)

Mark   Wind Athlete Nat Birth Pos Venue Date

2. 14:28.09 Bo Jiang CHN 1 Shanghai 23 10 1997

6. 14:29.82 Yanmei Dong CHN 2 Shanghai 23 10 1997

Both of those times are from the same '97 Shanghai meet.

10,000 Metres

WR 29:31.78 Junxia Wang CHN Beijing, 08 09 1993

Of course, from the infamous '93 Bejing meet

So basically, you have two meets, where all these mind-blowing performances are run. It would be like Bekele and Geb running 25:50 in East Africa, and then never duplicating those times again, and then suddenly East Africans stop running well at all. Instead, the East Africans have been great for nearly 50 years, and absolutlely dominant for over 15, and now both MEN AND WOMEN dominate. A COMPLETELY different situation than the Chinese. One (the Chinese) screams out "DIRTY!!". The other, "TALENTED".

Are we to believe that in a matter of 5 days, Wang CLEANLY and LEGITIMATELY ran 3:51, 8:06, 8:12, and 29:31?????

sir lance,

I'd say that the chance that the Chinese times of '93 were aided is about 99%. Is there a chance that it's genuine? Sure, but there's also a chance that 100 million Americans will somehow write in "Ralph Nader" on their ballots for the 2008 Election and elect him into office.

That aside, it's funny that this talk came up -- I was running with a very, very good athletics coach about 1.5 yrs ago and the subject of the Chinese records came up and he said, "suppose you're a coach in a country like China and they give you hundreds of thousands of women to coach and you just run them into the ground with mileage. You'll kill of 99% of them but the 1% that survives will be world beaters." While he acknowledged that it's more than likely that the times were aided, he noted that, as with nearly all things, there is a chance.

But probably not.

Sir Lancelot, great analysis.

Those statistics are indeed eye opening. We hear enough about Gebrselassie's European WR's being "drugged" (they're not). Imagine if, as you said, he ran 30 seconds faster in some obscure meet in Ethiopia? No chance.