Mr. Renato Canova: Could You Please Answer a Question About Effective Ways to Improve the Lactate Threshold?

stop nerving Antonio,it would be much more interesting if you could give us the latest news about Rui Silva(not running indoor or XC?).

i meant you guys should stop nerving him.

Ne-now wrote:

i meant you guys should stop nerving him.

I'm not. This is a discussion forum and I take offense to what he said.

If you don't like it, do not reply, but hopefully you are have run faster than 14:40 for 5,000 or you are only a "mediocre" athlete, Mr. Ne-now.

sergey,

Two things, firstly, if you are going to criticize Mr. Cabral for his use of our language, you should do so in his native language (Portugese). It's only fair, since you are expecting him to understand all the nuances and social morés of your language.

Secondly, when you have done as much to help innumerable "average" athletes with direct one-on-one coaching and free advice (not to mention his advice and insight on this board and others) as Mr. Cabral, then I think you have might have room to criticize. I know plenty of athletes who have contacted Mr. Cabral for advice, which he gives freely and promptly, whatever your level of ability.

I suggest you do as much before criticizing.

Sergey

THose who come in my help to say that i just coach top class runers they are completly wrong.

You say so that´s "insulting" because you don´t know me at all. Along all my coaching career i did coach all kinds of runners to all kings of categories, from olympic runners and international class, to the national class, to runners that are simply local runners to people with quite mediocre performances. Actually i still try to advise runners with with 14m - 15m 16m 17m to 18m to 19m PB´s in the 5000m - and they are not teenagers, they are seniors with years and years of training, simply they love to compete, they are like me they have running passion. I coach people from 2h09m in the marathon to 3h20m in the marathon !

If i think that i can help and give them some advise that they can improve no matter how much even if that´s if that´s simply a tenth of second i coach them - yes for free they have running resourse to pay me. My requirements are only 3 conditions, but that´s not talent. Talent have no place for my decision to coach someone. Discipline yes, not talent. Thus WANABEKILLA is wrong when he thinks that i would say "yiou are europen but you have no talent thus give up to try"

one- to be sincere and that we have both respect one each other and self-discipline

two- that they want to compete and improve thir performances, i don´t coach just for fun or wealth, even those i consider mediocre runners, i try my best

three- that we both define a goal target. Of course that a 16:30 runner can´t have a goal as to go to the olympics in short term. This is a fantasy, not realistic. The 2004 olympics qualifying that´s 13:20 (i guess) thus a 14:40 that´s an average runner according the olympic qualifying, he can´t dream yet to participate in the olympics and less to dream to be an olympic winner as some 14;40 they want to be. This i consider the great american wrong dream. This is what frustrating, to see that evenatully they willn´t fullfill their dream, and they give up running after they are teenagers. We need realistic targets. What i think that´s an offense also to the good sense of people or rationalism and an absurd is to think that a 16:40 runner NEXT goal is to participate in the olympics. Come back to earth my friend, to the reality. A 14:40 runner that´s an average runner according the olymoics requirements and a 16:30 that´s a mediocre runner according the olympics requirements. Wake up to the reality. Next step to that 16:30 runner if he competes regularly is to improve some minutes first in high-school competitions, then he can dream realistic to national class, and finnaly to international class, but according the actual olympics standarsd he is no more than a mediocre runner.

What is dramatic is that the mediocre runner is mediocre, what is dramatic dor him a frustrate for him is that after seeing that he is no more able to made the olympics he have no running alternatives, and he give up to try, But i tell you we all may be happy and the sense of realisation without being olymoic runner. You simple need to create a new mentality and not an old one that sees olymoics as the ultimate and the "sina qua non" conmdition (exclusive condition).

Now, two more things from my temperament that you need to know. That are my to best sentences.

- i never give up nothing.

- i always try my best.

Thus you understand that accroding my 2 sentences if i decide to coach a mediocre runner - i use to - no matter what mediocre i think he is - i will coach him until he gives up to try, and i try my best knowledge to help that runner.

About Rui SIlva he did an operation in October 2004, but new injuries artived and he is compltly out - he don+t train nothing since october 2004.

Nobby Nomates wrote:

sergey,

Two things, firstly, if you are going to criticize Mr. Cabral for his use of our language, you should do so in his native language (Portugese). It's only fair, since you are expecting him to understand all the nuances and social morés of your language.

Secondly, when you have done as much to help innumerable "average" athletes with direct one-on-one coaching and free advice (not to mention his advice and insight on this board and others) as Mr. Cabral, then I think you have might have room to criticize. I know plenty of athletes who have contacted Mr. Cabral for advice, which he gives freely and promptly, whatever your level of ability.

I suggest you do as much before criticizing.

I admire Antonio for his great service in helping runners. You are completely missing the point in your long and drawn out argument.

Secondly, this is an English language forum. Antonio speaks English well. I do not speak Portuguese, so your suggestion is farcical.

My gripe is not with anything to do with Antonio's personality or his helping runners, which is great, but with him calling hard working runners "average."

"Average" denotes normal, a performance any person can do. Anyone CANNOT do 14:40.

As for "mediocre" this means a poor result. But not many people can run 16:50.

So I thank Antonio for his writings, but I think his word choice was poor.

Sergey

You are wrong about your average definition. I´m right in my definition.

Average that´s not a performance that anyone can do, but the sum of all performances divided by the number of performances. Ex: If you have ten 4 guys one is able to do 12:40, the second one 13:40 the third one 15:40 and the fourth one 16:40 THE arithmetic AVERAGE THAT´s 14:40, despite no one did that 14:40 really and despite that two of them aren´t able to do 14:40.

Read the dictionary definition

The value obtained by dividing the sum of a set of quantities by the number of quantities in the set. Also called average.

Thus if you consider Olympic qualifying 14:40 that´s not average but mediocre.

I don't think Antonio is intending to insult anyone. I'm a mediocre runner according to his definition, but I didn't take offense to that statement. That's the way it is. That's not insulting, that's just honest.

Antonio, you are wrong when you say...

"Thus WANABEKILLA is wrong when he thinks that i would say "yiou are europen but you have no talent thus give up to try""

...i didnt say that but i certainly don't take offense.

Peoples opinions on "average" are highly subjective. By the literal definition (arithmetric average or mean) 14'40 would be way off average. Look at 5k road races around the world, the mean time would be 17min+. But I appreciate what you are stating when you say 'average and mediocre' and I certainly dont take offence.

Can't we find something more interesting to discuss???

Wanabekila.But now you made comments and pass judges about me and later you want to run away and from that discussion issue, or confine my freedom to post politely about what i want or comment your posts about me? Did I tell you any time if you are an optimistic or a pessimist, or a defeatist? Did I made any comments about your temperament? You did some comments about me and now you said that "Can't we find something more interesting to discuss???” Are you the Moderator of this site? Are you the one that rules what we or I discuss or what we don´t ?Lets read once again what you said, but first – if you permit me - let made you know some my own comments. First you considers me a “defeatist” which i´m not at all. Second your post in what concerns to me - you mention my name - (not just Lance) you made me so wrong comments about my coach attitude and my personal temperament that´s are completely wrong.Third, in what concerns to me your inadequate and fictional dialogue is so wrong that can´t never been happen with Me and a runner.Fourth, in a later post, when i tried to explain that i coach everyone independently of their talent and their performances, or nationality, continent, whatever, and that i accept with optimism the challenge to train what I consider average or mediocre or poor runners, and that i love to train average runners as well as top class runners, that´s the reason why i did comment your post, to come in my defence - nothing more. Wanabekila, i don´t know who you are, what you do, I also don´t understand enough from the english language to know by your posts if you are young or old, french or english or american or anything else. I also don´t know what Wanabekila nickname means and if that means something, and i´m not interest to know that. But one thing i don´t say about you, is to take conclusions what you would do in a certain situation or in a certain context from your own temperament.In that subject I simply confine to comment your post, and i don´t create imaginary/fantasist dialogues in between me and the runner, and if would be true (which isn´t) what you said about me of being a defeatist coach, as a coach you will never leave me - or your kids, because in the moment that I will know that you think that i´m a defeatist - you are close to any my advise and I shoot you out of my training group.Now, I advise all the the readers to read once again your post, and after what I said about myself as a coach – if your posts makes sense in what concerns to me.

wannabekila wrote:

Sir Lance, Antonio,

You may be right but if you were my coach or the coach of my kids I would leave you straight away. An adherence to such a defeatist view shows very little faith in your own charges.

Athlete: Coach, can I be the best in the world?

Sir-lance: Statistically, yes but i wouldnt bet on it.

Athlete: Why not coach, I'm good.

Sir-Lance: You're good son, but you're just too damn white. Its not your fault son, its your great-great-great ancestors faults.

Athlete: I suck, I'm gonna play football.

I wonder if there were 'genetic' studies of quarter-backs in the 80s that concluded blacks didnt have the right genes? Or golfers? Tennis players? Poker players?

One more thing – I know what are averages since 30 years ago, because I also work in statistics. This is not a question of english or that what some the people calls wrongly average like Sergey did, neither the fact that I don´t know english. That´s a mathematic and statistic question. But in later times I did learn that people spells “the” as “da”, what can I say Wanabekila?

Can't we find something more interesting to discuss??? Yes, but that will be good that you may have a different opinion about me, that I see that you don´t know me at all.

I do not speak Portuguese, so your suggestion is farcical.

Of course it's farcical, that's the point. I was merely demonstrating to you (it's painfully obvious to everyone else) that you have neither the eduction nor the intelligence to add anything to this thread. Why don't you go back to Runner's World, everyone's a winner over there. The rest of us just want to discuss high-level athletics and are honest enough to know that 16:50 is a mediocre, and makes no judgement on the effort which an athlete puts out to achieve it.

Believe me, I have nothing but the upmost of respect for your work and I dont mean to pass judgement on you. If I offended, I apologise.

Perhaps I went too far with my coach/athlete dialogue which was in any case directed more at Sir-Lance than you but it was only in jest. It was just a joke. The point I was trying to make is that I feel it is important for coaches not to impose limits on their athletes abilities. I'm sure you agree with this? Yet i felt your (and Sir-Lances) earlier posts were a little defeatist in this regard. This is an opinion that is all.

And no I am not a moderator (else i would ban myself) but do feel that arguing over definition of 'avearge and mediocre' is wasteful when there is so many other things to discuss.

Finally, 'wannabe' is short for want-to-be and bikila is Abebe Bikila. when you add the two together you get 'wannabe bikila' or 'wannabekila'. If I posted under my real name I would be fired at work. Male, European, MH 66, M 2'27, times (average?)

Antonio Cabral wrote:

About Rui SIlva he did an operation in October 2004, but new injuries artived and he is compltly out - he don+t train nothing since october 2004.

is he gonna skip the whole season(Helsinki?)?

You see, that a few times to discuss such a vain and irrelevant detail as what the arithmetic average, or why the Europeans are in performance´s crises –that´s all quite irrelevant but that have one virtue - made us understand each other a little better.

I think that the problem here is that what a friend of mine said me: is that by the internet you don´t know if someone is emotional or don´t. That lack of emotions in the net discussion is what made some to say about me: don´t make him nervous, or that i´m offended (as you say) or that i´m upset or worried. I never take nothing as an offence why should i? If what someone says me what that´s true the harder that´s for me that true, that´s not an offence, that´s simply the true, and consequently of what he says isn´t true that can´t also be an offence either, because he is not commenting over me, but over some (wrong) imaginary image that he did about me. Anyhow no reason to be offended, as no reason to be nervous or upset, only I think that we need to fight for our convictions, rather be coaching or our opinions.

But I think that the question here is that we lost too much time about the details rather than go directly to the essentials. Of course that when I first read your post I think did understood what you want to say for that, that´s what you says now “The point I was trying to make is that I feel it is important for coaches not to impose limits on their athletes abilities”. And as you may know now I agree. In no matter what competition running context we need to have a winner mentality and positive one, a fight one attitude, and fight and love the challenges – despite east African domination. Those who have the defeatist attitude are the runners not me or you. But ne thing is to be positive and the other thing is to be unrealistic or fantasy dreams…Of course that we need dreams to live, the one that haven´t no projects goals or dreams what he is doing on earth ? When I say dreams is something that in the ultimate reality or perceptual world we can get. And you may agree with me that for a 14:40 or a 16:40 runner the Olympic dream that´s a fantasy, can would be a dream where and when he will do some progress in their performances first. But if that 14:40 are the average of the the 5000m olymoic standards or don´t is quite irrelevant. I simply used a concrete figure to express my own idea, eventually that´s not accurate, that´s the first figure that it came to my mind, I didn´t imagine that someone will comment that as a offensive as Sergey did.

Wanabekila, Think this if you please. When I reply a post to you or you to me, many other people read that. BY what you said i know that you know what´s an average. But the Sergey don´t know, he have a false understanding of what´s an average, thus I need to teach that in detail for him and for those who don´tt know what that means, and I guess that most of the worlds meaning, they have a false meaning what that means. The same with Abebe Bikila, eventually you know more about him than the “average” !

I guess that if you will repeat that post now you will clean my name from there, because that defeatism i´m not in that profile.

Rui Silva coach did decide to skip the Madrid indoor champs, but he thinks that Rui will be back for some summer competitions and outdoor WC in Helsinki in the next summer. He did start a very light training programme some weeks ago.

Thanks Nobby Nomates

You said what i want to say, but in so short post that i would be able to say the same in so short sentences.

You got it ! Eveybody thinks that will be an olympic winner.

I will just add that everybody can be a winner - if work hard, ot try to improve. And that´s better that you train properly. But only a few can be olympic participants or olympic winners, but even if you are a mediocre runner that´s is not a reason to give up to try to improve -if you are weathly, or give up running and competing, or stay in bed all day long, and go to eat fast food, or simply watch TV all day. I have the same respect for a 25:00 runner than for an olympic runner or Olympic winner. Simply one is better runner than the eother. But i don´t whant that the runner have a wrong goal ro live in fantasy.

How do you think you can say this, Antonio?

Do you have a natural claim to "rightness"? Is your OPINION always right and another's wrong.

I think you are wrong, but you think you are right. There are some who agree with me and some who agree with you.

How can you then claim to have objective truth on your side?

Thanks, I know how to do simple mathematics. That is not what is being dicussed. In the athletic world, "average" and "mediocre" denote some performance that often was not worked for.

In short, it is a negative term.

That has nothing to do with this discussion and would serve no purpose.

As I said, I know. I have taken advanced multivariable calculus. I know how to do averages.

But very, very few are able to run faster than 13:20.

There are REMARKABLY few who have run under 13:00. There are also not many who have run 14:40.

A genuinely AVERAGE time in the 5,000 (even using your definition, # of performance/times) is probably over 20 minutes.

sergey wrote:

In the athletic world, "average" and "mediocre" denote some performance that often was not worked for.

Average: a ratio expressing the average performance especially of an athletic team or an athlete computed according to the number of opportunities for successful performance.

Mediocre: of moderate or low quality, value, ability, or performance.

Nowhere do these definitions say anything about not worked for as that is not relevant.

i am naturally right wrote:

Mediocre: of moderate or low quality, value, ability, or performance.

Of low VALUE.

Working very hard for a 15:00 5K is not of low value.

I enjoy reading your caustic, substanceless attacks primarily because, while simultaneously faulting me for adding nothing, you yourself DETRACT from the dicussion.

As for postulating about my education and intelligence--good luck.

In addition to being hilariously stupid, your attempt to extrapolate my educational background based on the 10-15 sentences I wrote on a running message forum lends credence to the theory that you should get yourself on TV because you are what awestruck teenage girls refer to as "my psychic."

Unless your name is Weldon or Robert Johnson, it is difficult to see what business you have telling me to exit the board.

In truth, almost everyone at Runner's World likely is a loser being that the site attracts a preponderence of 30:00 5K "runners."

I'm glad that you feel sufficiently qualified to tell everyone else on the board what they think and to qualify that your opinion--and only your opinion--is "honest."