Mr. Renato Canova: Could You Please Answer a Question About Effective Ways to Improve the Lactate Threshold?

Lance

Many thanks. Your last post is from good quality. I say that not simply because I agree or I that don´t, but mainly because that´s this kind of posts and discussion that made this message board interesting and not that rubbish ones.

One little taught while reading your post. Think also about altitude places as Morocco Atlas – Ifrane and so, and also about Colombia – they did produce also great runners – Colombia mainly cyclists but some years ago also Victor Mora and Domingos Tibaduiza. Think also about that are high altitude, but also valleys, and flats in altitude and altitude places that have only gradient mountains when the population don´t fix there. That ones have a little or no population relate to Kenya or Ethiopia´s valleys and plateaux.

Frank

I agree with your idea that “…most talented white boys and girls very rarely are identified or recruited to run.”

This made me remember a sentence of van Aaken some decades ago. When they ask him why the women run the marathon ? (more or less like this). He answers: they ru because they are beautiful, and they are beautiful because they run.

With all respect that´s similar to your conclusion: I will resume: “we don´t know their real talent because they aren´t recruited, and they aren´t recruited because we don´t know their real talent”.

We are running in a close circle and is not useful for the running improvement of the non-african runners. If your conclusion if that´s right, but we will never know really why should we ?, if they don´t run we just can estimate the talent, and because they don´t show their real talent we can just speculate about if they have so much talent as all the rest.

With this scenario I have no doubts that coaches like Renato they give up to try the recruitment and to coach or simply they go to east Africa, that´s where they can act as you ay about the non-African runners that´s they are coaches that they think that they are the best, so they have a try with runners that are easily recruited and have talent. Besides I don´t know how the recruitment is done where you live, but in my country I just say to you that a guy like me is no legal admit to coach no legal runner, or i´m no permit to coach no one officially, just in private. Thus my recruitment universe to coach the best non-African talents that´s very confined/limited to a private teams. And as you know since the runner have some talents he is a member of the each national federation, and even the teams they are members of the national Federation.

Thus i´m not allow to coach no one of that runners.

Some of you says to me that ´s the same in America, A guy like me with my credits and my lack of diploma and graduation I have no qualifications to be admitted in American´s high-schools.

Thus the true useful question will be: Why and how this static situation that we fall apart from the talent one runners in the countries out of Africa can be changed?

We all togheter we need to fight the lack of dynamics in the western society, that for an european coach or runner that´s "easier" to be a professional - a coach a runner, a agent in Africa than out of Africa.

I'm a little confused with regards to some of the terms used for training.

Now in the fundemental period when training for 5k do I run faster than my current pace, support this with lots of aerobic work within 20% of my race, do the circuit work and then train specific sessions for strenght endurance and 5k pace to build a special Max lass?

This thread has a mind of it's own. :o)

Dear Antonio,

Strange rules in your country. Diploma or education seem to be more important than results.

In Norway, everybody can coach any athlete as long as the athlete and the coach agree to do so. You start with young talents and from there everything is possible. The main challange in Norway is to find indiviuals that, both want to be a runner, and have talent to run. Many of our young talents end up with Cross-country skiing, where we have long traditions and culture, like in f ex. Kenya for running...

All unknown scenarios' lead to speculations.

Frank

Yes i agree, all unknow scenarios leads to speculation – europe or whatever we have different realities and when we comment something we basically based in our limited knowledge.

Thanks for made me know one more aspect from your beautiful country that we used to go fishing the world´s best code-fish – code fish that´s the one of most typical portuguese meals – code fish with boiled potatos. Of course that in a private context i can coach someone in an individual basis, I don´t need no diploma, no federation agreement or authorisation. But also I need to coach for free, who pays me ? No one pays me to train a young kid or a young promise. But I think that´s the same in America. I can coach anyone else in private, but I can be payed for an high-school without diploma. Once I did start to advise an average american runner. The he ask me that he had a proposal to go to the Hanson team. I said yes, they have some facilities, better than I can give you, and besides i´m distant than you, but he replies me: but I need to stop to be coached by you, because Hanson team they have their own team coaches and they don´t allow that a strange advises or coaches their runners.

In my country the problem is when the runner changes to be a good one and goes to be a professional runner. The agents come around with propositions, the best teams with the best running conditions want to start a contract with that runner – the teams are the ones that pay lots of money to the runner and as they have coaches from their own team, they get the runner in a dilemma: or he sign for them, but with the single condition that you change from your coach to our team coach leader, or if you want to keep with your same coach that´s hardly or no way you get professional – our team we have no interest that you sign. Frank you see the problem. They pay to a coach to train all the runners from the team, thus they don´t want to pay to one more coach.

Also power and influence rules, more than success and knowledge.

Look for the Fernanda Ribeiro coach – he is the coach of Fernanda and a few more top male runners, and then he is the coach head of the portuguese federation, and also the one that do the team selection. With such a power and influence and the talent runners that train with him – that´s not hard that he have success – but in my opinion I know lots of top coaches that are the ones that made the improvement of that runners since young kids, but they were left behind because since you have some visibility it comes a good professional proposition contract and if the runner wants to be a professional and have a shoe company support and a good agent that gets him in good competitions he needs to agree to change from his coach to a new one.

I understand what you say about that in your country the runners they go to skiing. Yesterday I saw in Eurosport channel the long distance skiing champs and Norway is in the top of the runs quite a lot. But with our young talents, in my country that´s similar – they want to play football that´s easier and you can with more money. Anyhow your info about who that works in Norway if you want to coach that susprises me.

But, please let me know: some years ago I did a female friend that´s a social teacher and she did a 2 years stay in Norway. She told me this: ok, in Norway that´s very develop and better economic conditions that the portuguese. But, all is ruled by the institutions, If you want to start a original and interesting project in no matter what area for your own, that´s very hard or impossible – she said that mainly all is ruled by the country administration and the official institutions. Do you agree with my friend about the comment she made about your country?

" concentrations in their blood," Beall said. Hemoglobin is the protein in red blood cells that ferries oxygen through the blood system. Having more hemoglobin to carry oxygen through the blood system than people at sea level counterbalances the effects of hypoxia.

Tibetans compensate for low oxygen content much differently. They increase their oxygen intake by taking more breaths per minute than people who live at sea level.

"Andeans go the hematological route, Tibetans the respiratory route," Beall said.

In addition, Tibetans may have a second biological adaptation, which expands their blood vessels, allowing them to deliver oxygen throughout their bodies more effectively than sea-level people do.

Tibetans' lungs synthesize larger amounts of a gas called nitric oxide from the air they breathe. "One effect of nitric oxide is to increase the diameter of blood vessels, which suggests that Tibetans may offset low oxygen content in their blood with increased blood flow," Beall said.

A pilot study Beall conducted of Ethiopian highlanders living at 3,530 meters (11,580 feet) suggests that—unlike the Tibetans— they don't breathe more rapidly than people at sea level and aren't able to more effectively synthesize nitric oxide. Nor do the Ethiopians have higher hemoglobin counts than sea-level people, as the Andeans do.

Yet despite living at elevations wih low oxygen content, "the Ethiopian highlanders were hardly hypoxic at all," Beall said. "I was genuinely surprised.""

Excuse me. In my last reply post to Frank when i say

But I think that´s the same in America. I can coach anyone else in private, but I can be payed for an high-school without diploma.

What i want to say that´s - I CAN`T BE ADMITED OR PAYED AS A HIGH SCHOOL COACH without diploma or american citizenship.

At least that´s what a few americans they told me. That´s very curious that recently an american runner promise that i did coach he is invited as a double role as a coach and a runner in a well know america university, and me that i coach him i´m not allow not to coach him neither to be a coach from that same university that he coaches !

Antonio:

I am enjoying reading your posts. The van Aaken quote you wrote was excellent!

Related to what you are saying to Fred, I coach a young man who may be one of our top runners in 3-4 years if all goes well (life is complicated), but my question is what happens if he makes it to the elite level? Will I, like other developmental coaches, be cast aside by the companies who pay for talented runners to compete for them?

It seems that unless a coach has some in-route with Nike, Adidas, Fila, etc. they are not likely to be part of the eventuality of elite racing, though they had served as the foundation of success for developing runners.

Have you had discussions with other coaches in your country about this topic? If so, what solutions have been proposed?

Tinman

Excellent point, Tinman. The prevailing idea is that the coach that got them to that point doesn't have the ability to take them further to the next level. Webb seems to be the only high profile American elite who went back to the coach who presumably got him to where he was in 2001.

Oh finish the quote, whydontya?

Yet despite living at elevations wih low oxygen content, "the Ethiopian highlanders were hardly hypoxic at all," Beall said. "I was genuinely surprised."

So what adaptation have the Ethiopian highlanders' bodies evolved to survive at high altitude? "Right now we have no clue how they do it," Beall said.

So, where's the talk about differences in mitochondria?

Dear Antonio,

I understand your challange when it comes to coaching. In Norway the personal coach is in many cases stronger even than the national team coach. The national team coach organise normally during championships, but still the personal coach is on the spot also during the different championships.

Of course there may be some conflict of interests, but that is life.

Basically, your friend is right, but if you are creative, anyone may get through his/her ideas/projects. However the main challange may be the financial aspect.

I have never been in your country, but my wife have been there several times for training and races. She liked very much.

I'm from the coast area of Norway, my fathers familly are all professional fishermen, so I love fish too!

I have followed this tread with interest from time to time. Lots of good info and lots to learn.

In an earlier post you referenced to the European Championships in 78 and the fact that 9th place in the 10 000 recorded 27.41. I happen to be the runner who got that 9th place. My comments are connected to what I believe you would find in the training of most distance runners in Europe at the time.

Our training was fairly simple and often based on the ideas introduced by Lydiard in the late 50s-early 60s. This means that we ran a lot - 100-120 and for some 150 and more miles pr week if healthy and in the basic training period. Most of this was not hard running but some of us used one or two quality days in a week where they would do hard running. I would for example often run 1 hr with 50 min very hard running included.

Lydiards ideas were generally adopted in some form and not followed directly as set down by Lydiard. Some did hillbounding or sprunglauf others did not. I did not and I think this is something I suffered from by not having enough legstrength to develop my speed on the track.

Those that raced during the winter ran x-county mostly and x-country meant running 10-12 km and for the British up to 15 km in a race.

Our summer competition programs were scheduled to reach the top form in one meet. The 10 000 m in the Eurpoean championships I think all runners ahead of me also including me ran our best race for the year that day.

Why are in a different situation in Europe now. One obvious difference is the influence all the good Africans runners have had. There are few good European runners but some European runners who do run well though. In my country Marius Bakken is a case in point. Even though Marius has not had a big impact internationally yet, I still find his results very impressive. Why are there not more European runners of Marius’ quality or better?

Using my own country as an example I believe that there are two main reasons for the poor results the last ten years:

Some time between 1978 and say 1990 people started to believe that they did not have to run as much as we did to run well. This lead to reduced quantity of work.

At the same time some areas got indoor facilities for training. This made people experiment with one or sometimes two days of faster work a wee. They wanted “to keep in touch with the stride used for track racing”. To do this they made sure they were fresh so they cut down on the work the day before and often had to run easy to get their legs in order the day after this faster work. In total they ended up taking away quite a bit of good aerobic running from the programs. Ironically in my country we have seen a fall in quality at the 1500m also not just for the longer races. In sum the 1 day of faster work, because energy was used on something different than aerobic running, also lead to reduced quality of aerobic work.

So we both have reduced quantity and reduced quality of aerobic running. This is to me a sure formula for bad results in 1500m and longer races.

Now I also see a tendency to make things very difficult. Sometimes I hear people talk training and I do not even understand what they mean or even worse I wonder if they do. Part of this is change of language over the years - we never spoke of thresholds. This change in language probably came about because more physiological knowledge was taken into use to understand why specific training was bringing good results. The change of terminology therefor basically something reflecting better understanding. This is an area of which I am the first to admit my knowledge could have been better, so do not get to upset when I reflect on it but it is my belief that this knew knowledge has giving solid support to what I generally will call the “Lydiard ideas” and by that also including the adoptions we did in my period as a runner.

By making things difficult I mean that instead of going out and get the good running done people use far to much energy on worrying about being on the right intensity. Talk of a need for 100% control in terms of being at one speed, one heart rate or one lactat reading seem to make people confused as to what they are trying to achieve in the workout. They end up believing that since they have the right reading on some measuring device they are training well without considering if they are training enough or if what they are trying to achieve the right thing.

This is somewhat opposite of the situation in my time. We knew what we tried to achieve and why (although not in physiological terms for me). We also knew generally how to achieve it but many (most) of us did not use any technology to control it. Our apparatus of control were basically our brains and how we reacted on the message the brain got from the body, combined with the help of coaches for some us.

Last I will just comment on the Norwegian situation discussed in two mails in the last days. Johan Kaggested, Ingrid Kristiansens coach, is again involved workuing for the athletics association in Norway. He does not coach directly but he try to “coach the coaches”. Two main aspect of Johan’s work is trying to involve more people and to get athletes to train enough. It is to early to say if this is going to be a success but hopefully by time things will turn to the better.

KnutK,

Thanks for posting that very interesting history. 27:41....WOW! So that was your national record? Who holds it now, Are Nakkim (27:32?) ?

I see your points about today's runners gettting too bogged down with the many scientific elements of training, and maybe getting carried away with too many details, and gadgets, and just making things too complicated. I do believe that is true to some extent.

BUT.......it's funny that you mention your countryman Marius, as an example one of the few very successful Euro distance runners of today. You do realize that Marius is the QUINTESSENTIAL example of someone who trains scientifically, with every gadget you could imagine (HR monitor, Lactate measuring, etc), and will discuss every threshhold in the book, and will make every run serve an exact purpose. He regularly gets his body scientifically tested to determine fitness. He is the ANTITHESIS of the athletes you describe from your time, who just ran by feel, and did not overthink things. He certainly believes in " 100% control in terms of being at one speed, one heart rate or one lactate reading."

On other hand, he certainly does do a lot of mileage volume, so in THAT sense he fits into your belief system that lots of volume is important for success in distance running.

But I just thought I would bring that up: Marius swears by running technology!

Thank you for a very informative post. I think you're statements regarding the decline in distance running performances are very insightful and are also the reasons for the decline in distance running performances in my country ( Canada ) and the United States. Personally, I think Sebastian Coe is the one who is most responsible for all this LOL. He had such success ( I idolized him in the early 1980s when I was a teenager ) and his training methods were reported to involve very high intensity and low mileage and I think a lot of runners and coaches tried to copy this. I certainly did. I don't know if his training was reported accurately or maybe that method just worked for him, but I think that was one of the main things that led people to follow the low mileage high intensity model of training. I just wish I'd understood all this when I was 18 ...

Wow! i was just about to make teh same point.

Perhaps sometime around the late 70s peoples roll-models changed from distance stats (hill, bedford, foster, rono, shorter, clayton) to middle-distance runners (coe, ovett, scott). As a result the blueprint went from 'high mileage a la lydiard' to 'high intensity a la coe'.

Maybe what Coe did suited him but i dount it suits aspiring 5k runners and it certainly is not a great base for a young miler who may move up the distance. Yet all around the world people adopt a Coe type approach.

Knut

Your post asks and comments are interesting. Despite i´m no Renato if you permit let me ask you a few questions for you the for the Norwegian tall runner that did train on Oregon. My questions have a my own conclusion into, and also try to get out what with all respect I think that are your contradictions in your comments.

1/did you never taught for a single moment that the fact that you did so many mileage volume so young in age and so soon in your career and in quite inaccurate paces that did made you not improve your talent and potential up to the limit and that to end your career younger as many other by the fact that you did more volume training than the needed ? I give you an example: you did born in 1950 right? You did your 5000m PB with 24 years old and your 10000m PB with 28 years old. Fernando Mamede and Carlos Lopes or Antonio Pinto did their best performances and their best international results after their thirties – just to mention the Portuguese ones. But in the age that you did yoiur PB´s they were poor runners than you. Well but they start doing 100miles later than you did but they end better runners than you did. What you think?

2/About what you said that “…Even though Marius has not had a big impact internationally yet, I still find his results very impressive. Why are there not more European runners of Marius’ quality or better?”. Knut with all respect aren´t you outdate about the best European performances and titles ? What did Marius did yet to you to say that why aren´t no more European runners of Marius quality. Aren´t you over estimate Marius and under estimate all the rest. What Marius did yet that some other dozens of Europeans didn´t. ?

3/One more question, Didn´t you realise that may be because one builds his training with a single season cycle or a single peak or goal target that´s the one of the reasons because Marius did fails in so many peak/goal occasions ?

4/About Lydiard. We know that Lydiard did build his training system to fit into 50´s and 60´s run timetable and basically for the south hemisphere – too distant than european summer meetings, a reverse season period and with few summer competitions than actually and no littler competitions out of track. Thus the one peak by season concept. We know that among many other one of the main reason because the performances that did improve is because ther´s more top competitiveness opportunities along the year round. Didn´t you never realise that because there are more runs and people uses more peaks during a single season and no more a single peak by year that also the reason that some people do less mileage than in the past, but that frequent competitions along the season being them also hard training sessions, are the reason because performances that did improves quite a lot ?

5/Finnaly I would ask you the same than Lance-a-lot, you claim no scientific accuracy, but Marius he is the modern icon of training under accuracy or under machine data or physiology concepts. But I can ask you a question. Did you never realise that to train under PACE accuracy we simply need a chrono watch and a measured distance and not heart rate monitors or lactic acid test ? But I understand what you said: that some modern runners they are obsessed by paces – but that are the paces zones under physiologic tests, not accurate paces under the Time/duration (chrono) and Space (distance) measures. If you say 100 miles a week, aren´t you being concern with measure your weekly distance – or each mileage by running unit ? Thus you need to know the pace or did you run also in measured courses?

Tinman

I did post to Frank not Fred.

This your issue is a complex one. I´m more familiar with workouts and training methods than with coaching conflicts of interests with the runners, with the other coaches and/or with agents and/or with teams and/or with the institutions and/or with big companies as Nike, Adidas, Fila, etc and/or with society rules and or/conventional concepts. Also the fact that my language that´s not the english that´s hard for me to made you understand such subjective issue, but despite that´s subjective that can determine the success or the progress of future running.

Recently i read in LetsRunCom a report from Rocky Mountain Distance Summit that took place in Colorado. One of the coaches Mr. Brad Hudson did an intervention and he said thar´s a Renaissance in the american running. That´s agood idea to relate that to the Renaissance. Historically the Renaissance that changed from Old Middle Age fix concepts and a close mentality with a strong hierarchic obedience and a powerful religious obedience to the New philosophic, cultural and artistic mentality. But (RE)naisance also means to be born once again, Why to be born once again? Because, while the men from the Renaissance they are open to new concepts they get back to the classics – Greece /Latin culture, art, philosophy, or democracy old concepts that the earlier men did.

In my opinion you need to do the same if you want that american running (or European running) that enters in a Renascence period. For one side that Renaissance needs an open mind, new ideas, new concepts, new coach concepts, break conventional status – in all aspects: from training concepts to coach concepts to that conflict of interests. To get out marketing concepts or conventional concepts as that academic education is what rules in a coach choice.

For the other side they need to look into our the past tradition what´s good. Take a look for the past coaching experiences from the past. Look to Lydiard as a coach, how he did as a coach, he was no one, but with a quite familiar group he did build olympic runners. As far as I know Lydiard didn´t no great academic studies. Look to Cerutti – very personal, very original and charismatic way to deal with their runners. Look to Bowerman. Isn´t Sebastian coach his father? Who is Paula Radcliff´s coach? I see quite an personal treatment in lots of some good coaching success examples. But then they come the big companies and they want to change all that system acting as Middle Age people. Ok they support financial the runner, that´s find, but only with the condition that they can´t change the coach relationship with the runner.

I did spend a lot of time writing about my country, but ther´s something more that you need to know and that´s part of Portuguese running success in the past decades – not today. Is that the past coaches they have a personal relationship with the runners that don´t exist actually.

Mario Moniz Pereira did such quite familiar relationship with their runners that Lopes or Mamede they treat them as “my father”. Mario Moniz Pereira used to care about all runners problems not just about his training schedule. In the Rosa Mota case the coach that´s his husband.

Antonio Pinto he starts to be a top class runner just when he changed of coach to be coached by an old school friend with the same age than Pinto.

But to answer Tinman question we Portuguese we don´t have no more that “familiar” coaching style or model, that used to be a kind of “small is beautiful” and now are the ones that rules over the coach and from big agents and managers and team directors, to people from the federation they all want to impose their will over the coach and runner interests, or they simply want that the runner changes from one coach to another. Now you know one more reason why in the past we were in the world´s best and now we are no more and we have a crisis. That´s not just due to the East Africans, or lack of talent, that´s a new challenge that we need to be motivate, a new mentality and more dynamics and incentives to broke all negatives rules. That´s our big running challenge actually in my country and I think in lots of other countries. Thus i´ma coach or a coach apprentice if you wish, i´m not a leader. Norwegian Frank he is right. We need to invest our coach talent to coach the talents that exists in Europe or America or Asia, and not take our time claim that the east fricans they are best than us or that they have more talent than us. We need to have open rules and facilities to be able to train our runners without conflict of interests.