Mr. Renato Canova: Could You Please Answer a Question About Effective Ways to Improve the Lactate Threshold?

I want to comment about some your wrong ideas in this issue.

If the Africans (or east Africans, or Kenyans) are wealthy than Europeans or americans they will live longer, but that´s not the case. As i told you life expectancy in Africa is an half than in europe or america. You can argue that they have no medicine to help fight the diseases, but if they were wealthy they will need less medicine intervention than europeans or americans. If the sedentary life, or hard life or food regime, or altitude or anything else that´s benefic they will be longer wealthy and without wealth problems.

In fact most of them are weaker than us, despite they are thin and less modern civilization negative impact. The majority in Africa or East Africa they are weaker than the europeans or americans.

The case is that it exists a minority among east Africans that did fortify in that - ritual of passage - that´s the challenge to resist to hard life and hard subsistence or no matter any other life condition challenge - as altitude can be one more - that´s hard to live in altitude and your life is shorter. That MINORITY among Africans or that minority among east Africans or Morocco, their bodies get such a strong and resistance and endurance capacity and TALENT very adequate for distance runs events (all of them not just RUNNING) and they are the stronger among all the rest of the world, and that same MINORITY is stronger enough that with AN ADEQUATE/GOOD TRAINING and after they build a top shape condition that they are able to win most of the runs to all the rest of the world, and they are able to produce the world best performances.

That East Africa minority turns in a world majority to dominate all running distance events.

One more point. Do you think that all kenyans they are good runners ? No they aren´t. Lots of kenyans as teenagers they hardly run faster than let´s say 5:15/mile even with an adequate training.

Once Tergat said: Kenyans they are wrong, they think that by the simple fact they are kenyans or from Masai tribe or any other tribe they are good runners, but they are wrong.

A last point. Of course that Renato said that a good part of the running success that´s proper TRAINING, and the kenyans are no exception of that rule. But Renato also said once that the important one factor that´s the TALENT.

Antonio, I agree with what you said, so if I am wrong, so are you.

And where do yo get this information that Kenyan teenagers cannot run 5:15 for the mile with good training?

Have you been to Kenya and seen this yourself? Because I find this nearly impossible to believe.

And Tergat never said this. He said it is part of the Kenyan mentality to think that if another of their tribe runs fast, so can they. And more often than not, this is true. So Tergat would not say this.

Ne-now wrote:

Compare Ndereba with Radcliffe and then Kennedy with Tergat, then you see why female african runners are not as dominant as their male counterparts.

You have lost me.

Are you saying that Ndereba should be running a 2:12-13 marathon?

I respectfully disagree about the easy modern life making people too lazy for training.

Almost for MOST PEOPLE that is the case, it is not that way for everyone.

For example I never ever eat at any fast food place and never touch such foods.

Also I have known of many runners who can train very hard and some of them very talented.

However the #1 problem I have seen with ALL runners here is the opportunity for places to train.

When I was growing up there were many places to run. I could go out of my house when little and go in any direction, and not even see any car, or once in awhile by a main road. Also I have lived different places and this was always the case when I was little and growing up and into my 20's.

But now that is not the case any more. There is concrete everywhere and cars, crowds, pollution, no easy surfaces for running and no safety at all. If you get killed or injured you can't run. Also there are many distractions, not just mental but physical.

So I think the #1 reason for the decline in america is the decline of availability of location and opportunity for running.

Really I can do anything, but any person can do anything. So that is not a factor for me, since my choice above anything say if I was 19 to age 38 again would be to devote all my time and effort, dedication to running. I even do this now long past those ages and have no chance for any Olympics or World Records. And I can do anything else, but still I like to run and not everything else.

So for me, and many others that I see, this opportunity for places to run is the problem.

There are many people right in this community who like to run and can be very good.

But there are few if any reasonable and safe places to run.

Racer 1 ;

Here's a quote from Toby Tanser's book on Kenyan Running " Train Hard, Win Easy, The Kenyan Way ".

" For every Kenyan runner who succeeds, there are dozens who fail, as it is everywhere.It's a minority who make the national level. The Rift Valley AAA held a track meet in Eldoret when I was there. The Kenyan event, the steeplechase had over 25 entrants. Fewer than 10 made it to the finish."

Clearly not all Kenyans are good runners. Just as all Canadians are not good hockey players or all Brazilians are not good soccer players. As with everything there are a few talented ones who rise to the top and many, many more who never will.

Another reason the Kenyans succeed is that they have a willingness to burn out many, many runners in order to find the keepers. We talk about burning out runners and pamper them, but if we put everyone through three-a-days, surely we'd find some that are able to compete.

Racer1

Most of what i said, i ask to Tergat personally in last November 2004 when Tergat did run on Portugal and he did run Oeiras Cross, that he did 2nd place. Thew winner that´s Bekele´s young brother.

I did a talk with him. Among other things he told me that even in his tribe ther are young runners that have no talent at all to distance running.

He also said me that in the Gabrielle Rosa group (Tergat coach) they have some 12 camps in kenya for runners talent recruitment. In every season they arrive there hundreds and hundreds of runners to be testeed but just a very small average - only a few - are the ones selected to join to the group in a definitively.

This agrees wit the information that Dan Moriarity post in this thread, the talent ones are a minority.

The group I train with in kenya often has one hundred athletes turning up at track sessions. Most of these athletes are training twice a day, 6 days a week.

Now, the difference in performance between the fastest and slowest was big. At the front you had guys who have run sub 13 for 5000m while the back markers were running 16 minutes (and still slogging it out twice a day). I generally found myself in the middle of the second of 5 groups of 20. And im a 14 something runner. So there were plenty slower than me.

The difference between these guys and back home is that they all believed they could be a champion runner and they all trained very hard, irrespective of their current performance level. Only a few had the talent to run sub 13 but all of them gave themselves a chance to find out whether they had that talent. Eventually the 16 minute guys realise that they are not the next Paul Tergat and quit to do something else, but not until they have given it a damn good effort.

As Kenya evolves and lifestyles change the number of top runners will decline. Fewer runners will commit to the training, they will train less intensely and as a result the chances of unearthing the top talents will be reduced. Already this is happening in the big towns and I have previously posted on this site that Ethiopia is set to totally eclipse Kenya in the coming years.

All of this says to me that its a combination of lifestyle, genetics(of a few ethnic groups), motivation and training which have made the east africans so strong.

You guys all raise some good points, but........

Your arguments do nothing to diminish my feeling that ON THE AVERAGE an East African person is a more naturaly talented distance runners than someone from another part of the world.

OK, not EVERY East African is brilliant natural runner, and that seems to be your(and Antonio's, in his last few posts) main point. WHO EVER SAID THAT????? What I, and others like Racer1are saying is:

RANDOMLY take 1000 East Africans from Ethiopian and Kenya, equally selecting randomly from different tribes and regions, and then RANDOMLY select 1000 US white children of European descent equally taking from different states or from different specific Euro backgrounds, take them from their parents, bring them to the same mega-orpanage, and train ALL 2000 runners the same way (hell, let Alberto or Renato do it) and I GURANTEE you that the 95% of the top 20 from that group will be East African. Now of course this experiement will never be done, but I'd bet my life on it turning out the way I predict. Let them live and be trained the EXACT same way, with the same motivations, and you will see the CREAM, ie the TALENT, rise to the top. It always does. And the most talented on the average are East African.

And sure, maybe it is true that the majority of Kenya's and Ethiopia's best runners come from certain tribes (like the Kalenjin in Kenya). So???? That just even MORE emphasizes my point that genetics play the biggest role in determining who will become the greatest runners in the world. Because of genetics, most likely the superstars of distance running will be East African, and because of genetics, most likely they will come from tribe X and tribe Y who live in region A and B of those countries. And it is likely that those particular tribes have existed at HIGH altitude for 100,000's of years. So it is still genetics, it is still talent, no matter how you slice and dice it.

The below is a really interesting, though a bit outdated(it does not recognize the rapid rise of the Ethiopians too much), article on this whole subject that I think has been pasted on LetsRun before. Apparently, many Africans and non-Africans alike believe that genes/natural ability play a HUGE role in running, and that the East Africans have the most people with superior distance running genes.

The whole article is here:

http://kenya.com/runners.html

I have selected a few excerpts:

"In 1990 physiologist Bengt Saltin, currently director of the Copenhagen Muscle Research Center, took part of the Swedish national track team to St. Patrick's Academy in Iten, Kenya to race the world's greatest high school track team. The local kids repeatedly trounced the champions of track-mad Sweden. Dr. Saltin estimates there are at least 500 schoolboys in the region who could beat Sweden's best man at 2,000 meters.

Based on the results achieved by the finest Kalenjin runners, Berkeley anthropologist Vincent Sarich, the co-founder of the field of genetic anthropology, statistically estimates that the average Kalenjin could outrun 90 percent of the rest of the human race."

I think it would be more like 95% of the human race, but I did say "AVERAGE" Kenyan, so this even includes the "slow ones".

"Why do Kenyans run so fast? One charming and popular suggestion is that Kenyan talent stems from their all having had to run to school. There are a few problems with this idea, however. Joe Sang, a Kenyan researcher, asked

20 international runners if they ran to school as kids and 14 said NO.'

So much for THAT theory.

Lastly:

"In the meantime, Manners' offers what he admits is purely anecdotal data supporting his thesis about the genetic aptitude of the Kalenjin. He has collected a dozen examples of ``Kalenjin men in their 20s who had never thought of themselves as runners at all until they wound up in circumstances that more or less obliged them to take up the sport." Typically, they had fooled American college track coaches, who assume all Kalenjin are great runners, into giving them scholarships. Once they arrived at their American schools, however, these nonrunners had to make the track team or be sent packing. Manners contends, "In each case, what happened when they started training is quite remarkable."

One young Kalenjin student named Paul Rotich, however, had never even intended to masquerade as a runner. His father was too prosperous for him to bother. And at 5'-8" and 190 pounds, the 22 year old was too heavy to pretend. Unfortunately, in his first year at a Texas junior college, Rotich blew the money his father had given him to see him through two years. To avoid returning in disgrace, he decided to get a track scholarship.

Manners recounts, "He began training -- running at night because he was embarrassed to be seen lumbering around the track." Somehow, he made the cross-country team that fall. He improved so fast that he won a scholarship to a four year college. There, Manners concludes, "He earned All-American honors ten times in cross-country and various track events. When he went back to Kenya and told his cousin what he had done, the cousin replied, 'So, it is true. If you can run, any Kalenjin can run.' "

Amen. And there are other tribes in Kenya and Ethiopia that also produce such stunning results. Do you think it is a COINCIDENCE that Meb is from East Africa? Or that former two-time Footlocker X-C champ Abdirizak Mohmmaned is from East Africa? Or Abdi A.? None of these guys ran in their East African homelands competively, but ALL came here , started training, and then began to dominate in the US. And THEY are not even from the hotbed tribes/nations we are talking about here.....but they ARE from East Africa.

Genes people, genes people. Here is another quote from another article I found:

"While there are the usual nature vs. nurture arguments over why African runners win so much, there is no possibility that culture alone can account for how much West African and East African runners differ in power vs. endurance. "

And I would add: culture can also not account for the way these two different sides of Africa DOMINATE their respective specialities (sprints and distance runs). This is as obvious as it can get.

One more quote:

"None of this conforms to American obsessions about race. First, we dread empirical studies of human biodiversity, worrying that they will uncover the intolerable reality of racial supremacy. Is this fear realistic? Consider merely running: are West Africans generally better runners than whites? In sprints, absolutely. In distance races, absolutely not. Overall racial supremacy is nonsense; specific ethnic superiorities are a manifold reality. "

But they ARE a reality. AND.......there are ALWAYS exceptions to every rule. Hello Jeremy Warniner, and hopefully(to the same extent), hello Dathan Ritzenhein.

I think the discussion can end there.

Lance.

Ok you said that FOR YOU the discussion can end there. But as i still have doubts, i ask you one question, because as i told you i´m an ignorant in genetics.

In your example you said that "...I GURANTEE you that the 95% of the top 20 from that group will be East African. let´s think that you are right. You also said that "...maybe it is true that the majority of Kenya's and Ethiopia's best runners come from certain tribes (like the Kalenjin in Kenya). - I can agree.

Thus i have two questions for you.

1. Aren´t that 95% of the top 20, 95% (let´s say - that´s not accurate) from an heritage that born and live in altitude as themselves ?

I think that´s not hard to prove that most of them born and live in the altitude.

2. If so...or if don´t...is that the altitude living what changes the genes ? I really don´t know, i thanks your answer if you answer that 2 questions.

You are right Antonio, such discussion like these can go on as long as people want to talk about them, and of course as long as new evidence is discovered to add to the debate. So yes, it is clearly NOT over, but I did indeed mean that for me, I would stop talking about it on THIS thread, since I have already done a lot of writing, and did not want "take over" the thread and dictate its direction. But I AM sure, based on all the evidence that is known now, that genetics play a very strong role in determining who the fastest sprint and distance runners are. And the majority of these athletes, by far, have an ancestry from West Africa and East African(and some from North Africa) respectively.

But since you asked some honest/good questions, I will write some more (ok, you "twisted my arm" ;-). But since I am so "long winded", you might be SORRY you asked!! ).

Your first question is about the relation between altitude living and producing the best runners of East Africa. Here is a quote about the mountainous regions of East Africa:

"In Eastern Africa, Ethiopia mountains include Mount Ras Daschan, Mount Abune Yosef, Mount Choke and Mount Guge; Central and Western highlands of Kenya which include Mount Kenya, Mount Nyambene, Aberdare and Cherangani Hills; Central and Northern Highlands of Tanzania which include Mount Kilimanjaro, Mount Meru and Usambara in Tanzania; and Mount Elgon and the Ruwenzori in Uganda. Apart from these, there are many other smaller ranges and highlands in all countries in Africa." )

So clearly we can see that there are a LOT of mountainous and highland regions in Kenya and in Ethiopia(but they are not ALL highland areas). Now relating specifically to your question, we already know that the Kalenjin tribe is from a highland part of Kenya, and they are the dominant producer of Kenyan stars. But what about the Kenya stars that are NOT from this tribe, or the Ethiopian stars? I don’t know the answer on that one for sure, but I would bet(and am quite sure) that a large % of these non-Kalenjin East African stars (from Kenya and Ethiopia, and elsewhere in East Africa) are also from highland areas. But let’s keep in mind one thing: one’s CURRENT living environment is less important than the environment of one’s ancestral history as far as the natural abilities we are talking about. So even if there are some East African stars that did not physically grow up at altitude, their ANCESTORS might have, and thus they could already have the genetic make-up/advantage of an East African highlander. They could still suck Oxygen out of the air better than the average person, even if they themselves did not grow up at altitude. It’s more important what the living and environmental conditions of your ancestors were, rather than your own current environmental conditions as relates to genetics. And this is why East Africans can of course be transplanted to other countries all over the world and still be very successful. And this is ALSO why someone like me can not just move to altitude and suddenly develop the Oxygen using capabilities of an East African. And in fact, the study I discussed earlier showed that even other peoples like the Tibetans and Peruvians whose peoples have lived on highlands for 1000’s of years had not developed as perfect a strategy for living in thin air as the Ethiopians. Why? Likely because the Tibetans and Peruvians, compared to the Ethiopians, are latecomers(in evolutionary terms) to highland areas. Maybe eventually these other cultures will show the same genetic qualities (as relates to dealing with thin air) as the Ethiopians do now. So moving to altitude might help one in distance running (clearly different training stimuli, like running hills, or using weights, or running in thin air) can make one stronger. But again, it will NOT make one develop East African Oxygen-using capabilities, which appears to be a genetic mutation selected for over 10,000’s of years.

And this leads to your second question, which was (and which I basically already answered I believe)-

"2. If so...or if don´t...is that the altitude living what changes the genes ? I really don´t know, i thanks your answer if you answer that 2 questions.

If I am to answer what I believe you mean by this question, then I would say basically yes. BUT….. one needs to be careful if one wants to describe the process accurately (and I discussed with a PHD in genetics to make sure I had it right)-

The altitude/environment does NOT "change the genes." The environment (in this case an environment with altitude) is what causes certain genetic mutations to be SELECTED FOR in a people. So the ability to deal with thin air in the most successful manner might be encoded on certain genes that exist in ALL populations to at least some extent. But ONLY in the populations that have lived at Altitude the LONGEST have these genes been selected for and passed onto ancestors AT THE HIGHEST RATES. So in most cultures that moved "out of Africa" and settled at sea-level areas, these genes (that helped people deal with thin air) were not very important for survival, and maybe other genes were (like genes for pure muscular power). So a person that did have the "thin air genes" but did not have other important genes (important for surviving a particular environ or culture) might die off in that culture, and not pass the "thin air genes" on to any ancestors. Slowly those thin-air genes would diminish in that people (but NOT necessarily DISAPPEAR. And this is why one WILL SEE great runners with "superhuman" ability from nearly ALL cultures. I am NOT saying that the East Africans have "cornered the market" on distance-running genes, only that a much higher % of their peoples have such genes, and that maybe someone like a Bekele has ALL the important genes necessary for the make-up of a distance runner). But in East Africa, thriving in thin air (and running long distances at thin air) WAS very important for survival. So naturally, the people with these thin-air genes would survive and pass them onto their ancestors, until eventually the majority of the people would have it (and thus they would have an above-average ability to suck Oxygen from the air to their blood).

Now that might not be perfectly described, but is in general close to the mark I believe. So the environment does not CHANGE the genes, but it is the catalyst for which genes are passed on (and which are not) in a group of people.

Now for the people who would argue: but WAIT, there are other cultures that have lived at Altitudes for years, and THEY have not developed great runners like the East Africans, I have 3 answers:

1) I never said such "thin-air/Oxygen processing" genes are the ONLY genes that matter in creating a good distance runner. Clearly there are others too. And likely the East Africans have those also, and maybe some of these other highland cultures do not have these other important (and unidentified) "distance running genes."

******In fact, in recent scientific discovery, it was shown that peoples who ancestors come from WARM areas have genetic differences than peoples whose ancestors came from COLD environments.***** The big difference?

The mitochondria of the peoples whose ancestors came from warm environments were better at producing ENERGY than producing heat(to stay warm), and the peoples who ancestors came from cold environments were the other way around (their mitochondria was efficient at producing heat, but NOT AS EFFICIENT at producing energy). So that’s ONE MORE GENETIC ADVANTAGE for the East Africans, because clearly their ancestors have lived in a warm environment for many years.

2) As I already pointed out, these other highlanders’ ancestors moved to altitude later than the Ethiopians. So they have not developed as perfect a strategy for dealing with thin air/and processing Oxygen as the Ethiopians.

3) There very well might be great runners in hiding in these other highland areas of the world. Coaches like Renato and Antonio and Alberto S should make a pilgrimage there to see if they can drum up some distance running interest and recruit these athletes. Who knows, there might superstars in waiting.

I am glad that you stopped talking about it.

observer of taking up space wrote:

I am glad that you stopped talking about it.

Hey that's a fair "dig" at me, because as usual my post was long. But Antontio asked my opinion on a question he said he did not know a lot about, so I gave it him my best answer. He's done the same for me many times, so the least I could do was reciprocate.

But since, as I've said a dozen times, the case is closed on whether the East Africans have superior distance running genes in my opinion, yes, I WILL actually stop talking about it................now..........at the end of this sentence.........that I am writing right now.......... .

How about you take this thread in a new/old direction? Ask Renato or Antonio a question about one of their athletes. I am sure they will oblige you with LOTS of details (they seem like detail guys, like myself).

Dear Antonio,

I did not advocate that talent is not important. I said that you can identify talented boy and girls in Europe too. NOT only in Africa...

Why not effective? Propably because the most talented white boys and girls very rarely are identified or recruited to run. Any training system will be less effective for less talented individs, black or white does not matter. I'm quite sure that if Renato trained the most gifted white individuals, then they would achieve very good results too.

Why others beat Renatos' athletes?

May be they are more talented, or even their training system are even more effective than Renatos'athletes and training system?

I did not either state that Renatos' training system is the best in this World!

NOTE!

I did not state that your training system is poorer than Renatos' system.

Why can't your runners beat Reanatos' athletes, or the other you ref. too?

Sir Lance, Antonio,

You may be right but if you were my coach or the coach of my kids I would leave you straight away. An adherence to such a defeatist view shows very little faith in your own charges.

Athlete: Coach, can I be the best in the world?

Sir-lance: Statistically, yes but i wouldnt bet on it.

Athlete: Why not coach, I'm good.

Sir-Lance: You're good son, but you're just too damn white. Its not your fault son, its your great-great-great ancestors faults.

Athlete: I suck, I'm gonna play football.

I wonder if there were 'genetic' studies of quarter-backs in the 80s that concluded blacks didnt have the right genes? Or golfers? Tennis players? Poker players?

Hi Frank, or who ever that may be able to shed some light. I am curious about lactate threshold or lactate production. Does your LT velocity go down with fatigue, for example, if the speed you are able to run at LT is 3:10/km and you have completed some hard/moderately hard training the last few days could/would your LT pace slip to slower than the 3:10. It seems that your ventilation is up, and because of muscle fatigue you are working as has hard. Or foe example you are fatigued woulod running a hill moderately put you into your threshold easier than running faster on a level surface.

Secondly if LT is somewhat connected to heart rate and ventilation, and you are fatigued or even comming off being sick a few days or running in snow or sand would you be working at your threshold at slower speeds.

Lance,

I really feel that you are making far too many assumptions in your posts.

You are trying to say that there are genetic advantages with the East Africans, yet no one has identified a higher frequency of any specific gene in these populations which could be related to an increase in ability in distance running. This is rather flimsy evidence to make this assumption. The knowledge of genetics is still in its early stages and our understanding of the interaction of genetic, cultural and environmental factors is extremely limited at this stage.

To make a blanket assumption that some population groups are better runners largely because of genetics is jumping the gun somewhat. It is interesting to note that back in the 1970's, some scientists were concluding that the Finn's were "genetically gifted" for distance running, and there were all sorts of theories being thrown around. How times have changed now, even by European standards today, the Finns are poor distance runners.

Furthermore with respect to this work you are talking about with these Ethiopian populations, you have to realise that this work is just one study. It is unwise to base all your conclusions on one scientific study. In the 1970's there was some work published by an eminent Italian research group which concluded that the haemoglobin of Sherpa highland natives in Tibet was somewhat different in its affinity to oxygen compared to that of higland natives (Quechua) living in south America. In this case it was concluded that the haemoglobin of the Sherpa had incresed affinity to oxygen compared to that of the South American highlanders. About 8 years later therewere many published studies which were concluding that these findings were in fact incorrect and that in fact there was little difference in the haemoglobin's affinity to oxtgen in these two groups.

I could go on and on about this area, but basically I feel that the Ethiopian study is interesting but I would not say that this means "Ethiopians are gentically superior distance runners". There are far too many other factors to be considered and furthermore you really have to wait for more studies with a similar positive finding before you can reasonably make this assumption.

sisu wrote:Secondly if LT is somewhat connected to heart rate and ventilation, and you are fatigued or even comming off being sick a few days or running in snow or sand would you be working at your threshold at slower speeds.

That's an interesting question, and I'd also be interested in the answers.

Last fall I ran a HM with a chest half full of goo (chest infection - didn't show any real symptoms until I tried to use my lung capacity in race effort, although I saw an indication of trouble in one workout, which became obvious only in hindsight), but didn't realize it until after the fact. Clearly my ventilation wasn't happening efficiently. I was about 5 minutes off goal time in the end. I started out about 10s/mile off goal pace (goal pace should have been fairly close to LT, and would have been LT based on prior training observations). I then struggled out a couple of miles at goal pace, and then faded miserably as the body forced me to slow down.

Interestingly, my HR got WAY higher than it should have for an HM if I were healthy. I've often seen the reverse happen when I'm underfuelled, or working out too close to previous workouts or long runs, or generally under the weather - ie. I'll have a hard time getting the HR up if glycogen stores are a little low. But in this case, the opposite effect occurred, and for the second half of the race my HR was consistently higher than I would normally see for a 5k, and I saw HRmax in the final mile as I trudged in to the finish with an 8 minute mile.

Anyone have any legitimate basis for answering sisu's question, and explaining what went on during that HM when the body decided to rebel?

I think, however, it is safe to say that if a population, such as those in E Africa, is so active in their life and particularly their youth, the "average" talent will be better and those genetic freaks with talent will have the tools to set WRs.