RENATO CANOVA INTERVIEW- ". I can put my hands on fire" to prove these althletes are clean

Every African athlete seems to need a sketchy European agent/manager/doctor in order to succeed.

These sketchy agents/managers/doctors are making a tidy amount of money from their stable of African athletes.

Would there be any motivation for a sketchy agent/manager/doctor to provide any extra 'assistance' to their athletes in order to win more and bring in even more money?

I'm given the athlete the benefit of the doubt here, because we all know that East Africans are not genetically made up to cheat, it's not in their nature at all. Too nice and smiley.

I don't know. I try so hard not to and usually succeed. But maybe Ron Davies was someone we should know about.

federico wrote:

HRE wrote:

So it's no longer convenient for you to insist that Davies and Snell and Davies did all of their training together as you've done here for months if not years? What changed your mind?

Why do you bother EVER respond to letsruns greatest troll (Yes AC you can be the best at something ... see!)

HRE wrote:

So it's no longer convenient for you to insist that Davies and Snell and Davies did all of their training together as you've done here for months if not years? What changed your mind?

You got some confusion here. I never said that Peter Snell and Ron Davies lived or train in the same place because they don´t. I said something different.

What i insist it´s that in 1964, while they both peter and Ron did prepare the Tokyo Olympics, Snell and Davies they did stay together during the last 8-9 weeks prior the Olympics, what is the pre-competitive anaerobic Lydiard block, AND DURING THAT PERIOD BOTH DID THE SAME TRAINING WORKOUTS precisely, and that all was done on the presence of Arthur Lydiard.

The schedule that both did at that period summer of 68 is reported on Run to the Top.

There when i say they did train together, it´s in the context that Lydiard training doesn´t training individualisation, or workout discrimination based in training individualization. One runner is Peter Snell, faster and more FT than Ron Davies which the main distance events were 800m-1500m, and Ron slower and less FT than Snell, looks more as a typical 1500m-5000m, rather than Snell´s 800m-1500m.

However Lydiard didn´t consider training individualisation and consequently did schedule the same intervals for both Peter and Ron.

What this means ? This means that on the aspect of training individualization Lydiard training is an outdate method.

Do you understand better now what´s the difference to what I said in the past that they did train togeheter during one specific period and what I said on my last email reply ?

On my last email reply I deny your (HRE) argument that Renato might be not so sure of their athletes drug take because he is not with them all the time, while you say that Lydiard could be more sure because the Lydiard group did train together.

But your argument is false, because it´s not true that LYDIARD STAYS ALL THE TIME WITH Murray Halberg, Barry Magee, Snell, davies or Dick Taylor – all this ones were coached by Lydiard directly or that Rod Dixon, John Walker or Viren, Vasala, Paivarinta, Tapio Kantanen etc – all that last FOLLOWED THE LYDIARD METHOD, BUT THEY WEREN´T COACHED BY LYDIARD DIRECTLY.

Therefore I repeat. Or you ignore the training reality of this Lydiard runners, or you got 2 weights and 2 measures. I bet for the second hypothesis, the higher number of your partiality when the debate is about Lydiardi or don´t. This your 2 weights and 2 measures behavior it´s not unique. Your behaviour on this matter is typical Lydiardism behviour.

federico wrote:

HRE wrote:

So it's no longer convenient for you to insist that Davies and Snell and Davies did all of their training together as you've done here for months if not years? What changed your mind?

Why do you bother EVER respond to letsruns greatest troll (Yes AC you can be the best at something ... see!)

You that you named me troll prove to this board that i´m wrong on this matter.

1/Prove us Ron Davies and Peter Snell did not lived in distant places and they did train together most of both training and competitive careers and that Lydiard was always present.

2/Prove us that despite they lived and trained apart, they didn´t train the same Lydiard schedule on the summer of 68 and that they don´t did the same training workouts both togheter under the supervision of Lydiard

3/Prove that the comment of HRE isn´t done as 2 weights and 2 measures, when he says that Renato can´t be sure their runners don´t take drugs but Lydiard did.

I guess that in this subject the real troll is you.

trollism wrote:

Every African athlete seems to need a sketchy European agent/manager/doctor in order to succeed.

It's kind of hard to succeed in Europe when you don't speak the language, know anyone, have internet access, and live in a third world country. How the hell are these athletes going to get themselves to Doha or Rieti or wherever without the involvement of a coach?

Oh sure, I have the equivalent of 12 dollars and a cow. Let me just hop on this jet to Europe.

Tweeter Center wrote:

It's kind of hard to succeed in Europe when you don't speak the language, know anyone, have internet access, and live in a third world country. How the hell are these athletes going to get themselves to Doha or Rieti or wherever without the involvement of a coach?

Oh sure, I have the equivalent of 12 dollars and a cow. Let me just hop on this jet to Europe.

Point missed.

As I said, the athletes are innocent. Not genetically programmed to cheat. Too nice and smiley.

But for the sketchy European agent/manager/doctor - is there any motivation to provide a little extra assistance to these athletes they're most kindly helping out of poverty?

RE - great points. It's amazing to think of the men's marathon records for certain countries who are perceived to be dirty by the board (either because of actual number of doping offenses or inherent bias):China: 2:08:15 (2007)Greece: 2:12:04 (1988)Russia: 2:09:07 (2007)Germany: 2:08:47 (1988)These countries are clearly no match for the advanced systematic doping programs taking place in Kenya and Ethiopia. The over 250 runners faster than the fastest Chinese guy (clean or dirty) must all be on peds (except Ryan Hall and Steve Jones, of course - yes, this is sarcasm).As an interesting aside (for me at least) - the recent Chinese marathon record holder, Ren Longyun, has prs of 13:44/28:08 for the 5k/10k - he set the 10k record 12 days after he set the marathon record - and he had just turned 20.

HRE wrote:

When those Chinese women destroyed the women's world records a few years ago most westerners "knew" they'd cheated with no more basis for that belief than a set of hard to believe times.

If those women had been Americans there would have been some questions asked but there would have been far fewer people who were sure the records were illegitimate. The more removed an athlete is from you as a rule, the more likely you are to question the legitimacy of that athlete's spectacular performance. That's always been true. If Viren was from, say, Minnesota, and had the exact same career (minus the appearances at the European Championships) we'd only have a fraction of the posts here that talk about him and blood doping. Thus, Lance Armstrong gets much more leeway in the west on the doping issue than an East African distance runner will.

Thanks. I was thinking of how this issue compares to American's and their opinions of Congress. Opinion poll after opinion poll finds that Americans despise and distrust Congress. But when these same people are asked about their own representative they're much, much more positive and generally think of him/her as a pretty decent and honest sort. Obviously something's off the mark. Either Congress is not really the corrupt, self serving body Americans think it is or people's individual rep has really conned them.

There's similar dynamic in running. We all agree, well, other than J.R., that doping is a major and pervasive problem for the sport. But when we think about who's actually doing it we're pretty sure it's not someone we know of and like or that it's someone from a place we like.

HRE wrote:

We all agree, well, other than J.R., that doping is a major and pervasive problem for the sport.

I am the ONLY one who has stated that the drugs themselves and the DRUG TESTS are the problem, promoted by the pharmaceutical corporations, the ones who are behind the promotions and the tests. They are the only ones who benefit from the drug hypocrisy, that they themselves have created.

You BELIEVE the drugs work, only because of their self serving promotions that brainwashed you into BELIEVING that they do.

The people that take the drugs are the victims of them, as are the athletes who take NO DRUGS, because they are harassed and caused to submit to invasive procedures that are worthless.

you cannot be serious?!??!

J.R. wrote:

I am the ONLY one who has stated that the drugs themselves and the DRUG TESTS are the problem, promoted by the pharmaceutical corporations, the ones who are behind the promotions and the tests. They are the only ones who benefit from the drug hypocrisy, that they themselves have created.

You BELIEVE the drugs work, only because of their self serving promotions that brainwashed you into BELIEVING that they do.

The people that take the drugs are the victims of them, as are the athletes who take NO DRUGS, because they are harassed and caused to submit to invasive procedures that are worthless.

So what you're saying is that you don't get any increase in performance with an increase in hematocrit?

Is that it?

Everyone knows there are some drug cheats in track and field; however, I believe the majority of the athletes are competing clean. As J.R. stated it's the drug corporations and agencies who benefit the most and thus they keep the general fans with the mindset that drugs are a huge problem in our sport. The sad thing is these organizations do so at the expense of our sports reputation!

The athletes who uses drugs to enhance their performance is very small in comparison to our clean athletes, yet the problem is enhanced as if it's a continously growing problem- when in my opinion the drug cheats are the less of our sports problem. Governing bodies should focus ALITTLE more on promotions, sponsorship, and television!

Right. You don't seem to think drugs affect performances and that makes you pretty unique here.

VIPAM wrote:

Everyone knows there are some drug cheats in track and field; however, I believe the majority of the athletes are competing clean. As J.R. stated it's the drug corporations and agencies who benefit the most

Please tell us how the drug corporations benefit from cheating in sports.

HRE wrote:

Right. You don't seem to think drugs affect performances and that makes you pretty unique here.

Their affects are negative.

Mr. Obvious wrote:

Please tell us how the drug corporations benefit from cheating in sports.

Come on. It's a multi billion dollar industry.

How they benefit is by their promotions of the drugs, by getting the drugs in your face, by brainwashing you into thinking the drugs work and are good, by telling you they make superstars out of nominal athletes. In fact the superstars are sooooo good - i.e. because of the fabuous drugs - that they are soooooo hard to catch, and thereforeeee the drug corporations need more of YOUR money to try and catch those nasty people, for taking the MIRACLE chemicals (blessed by God) --- that even YOU can get at your local pharmacy, or from the internet, or ask your doctor about them!

See how that works. It's all a bunch of propaganda and hogwash.

J.R. wrote:

Mr. Obvious wrote:

Please tell us how the drug corporations benefit from cheating in sports.

Come on. It's a multi billion dollar industry.

How they benefit is by their promotions of the drugs, by getting the drugs in your face, by brainwashing you into thinking the drugs work and are good, by telling you they make superstars out of nominal athletes. In fact the superstars are sooooo good - i.e. because of the fabuous drugs - that they are soooooo hard to catch, and thereforeeee the drug corporations need more of YOUR money to try and catch those nasty people, for taking the MIRACLE chemicals (blessed by God) --- that even YOU can get at your local pharmacy, or from the internet, or ask your doctor about them!

See how that works. It's all a bunch of propaganda and hogwash.

So you believe that Amgen, for example, depends on elite athletes using their products and the publicity that generates for sales to other athletes? Epogen is an enormously successful drug yielding over 2 billion dollars a year primarily to treat people with cancer, liver disease, and other serious conditions. They aren't relying on athletics as their promotional vehicle and could never possible hope to generate even a tiny portion of those sales through athletics.

Mr. Obvious wrote:

Epogen is an enormously successful drug yielding over 2 billion dollars a year primarily to treat people with cancer, liver disease, and other serious conditions.

The bogus drugs are successful for the pharmaceutical corporations, not for the people with cancer.

Turning your question around, if the drugs are so successful, why are the drug companies constantly bombarbing the populace with ads on tv and the internet? Why are they spamming people's emails with ads, with constantly changing email addresses?

Because they want to be in your face 24/7.

It all proves my point.

There was a post here that called renato out with very specific accusations by someone in the know with very specific references to an athlete. the post was summarily deleted.

NativeSon wrote:

Let me pose a question.

How many elite Kenyan and Ethiopian runners have used drugs?

Can anyone name them?