GRANT MF FISHERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

John Wesley Harding wrote:

Regarding Thierry Ndikumwenayo - as has been noted, he has an interesting IAAF profile given his previous years’ progression, or honestly lack thereof. But imagine some of his performances in the context of his being an American:

17 years old - 8:06 3k
18 years old - 13:27 5k
19 years old - 28:18 road 10k
21 years old - 7:41 3k
22 years old - 9th at World XC (9th doesn’t exactly excite, but keep in mind it was a very competitive year where Barega
was 5th, Rhonex Kipruto was 6th, and the top American was Shadrack Kipchirchir in 34th).

If this were an American, he would obviously had garnered some discussion as an 18-22 year old, and the question in the last 2-3 years would have been why he wasn’t running much faster given his early promise.

Sure, anyone running a 7:25.93 3k might be doping, but it’s also possible that some of those popular doping rationalizations (he started running much more, never did speed work before, radically improved his nutrition, finally got a healthy stretch of training, etc.) are truthfully big factors here.

I have a soft spot for Burundians, since my high school XC team had a whole host of Burundian contributors whose families had immigrated due to civil war. The year we placed 4th in state, 4 of our scorers were Burundian. Aside from that, this isn’t the first time a runner from Burundi has
been a top-5 3k runner in
the world (see Venuste Niyongabo).

Swamer-Runner wrote:

High hopes wrote:

What in earth has Chelimo done to arouse suspicions?

Look, two things can be true at the same time:

1. Chelimo deserves a lot more respect from US distance running fans than he gets. It's not about skin colour, it's the fact that he wasn't born in the US. He'll, Rojo said as much on the pod a few weeks back.

2. Fisher is running very well and offers a lot of potential for Budapest and Paris. 3rd in a DL is a great indicator of that (btw, Chelimo won a DL, just to add to his CV).

I don't see why praising Fisher requires belittling Chelimo's achievements.

I fully agree with the points here with one minor modification. I don't care about an athlete's country of birth anymore than I care about the nationality or ethnicity of their parents. What is an extra point of pride for me, is when an athlete is produced by the US system.

Someone who ran in high school in the USA and the NCAA system is a better indication of the USA's ability to produce talent than someone who immigrated as a fully formed adult athlete. It doesn't matter to me that Meb Keflezighi was born in East Africa, because he started running in high school in the US and became an elite runner through his time at UCLA. Meb is a product of USA running.

Having said that, I'm still incredibly proud of the fact that the USA is a place where people like Chelimo and Lagat want to immigrate, obtain citizenship and represent in international competitions. It isn't like we are just buying athletes with oil money. I'm very proud to have them as Americans representing the USA. They just aren't a reflection of US system's ability to produce top talent.

Swamer-Runner wrote:

High hopes wrote:

What in earth has Chelimo done to arouse suspicions?

Look, two things can be true at the same time:

1. Chelimo deserves a lot more respect from US distance running fans than he gets. It's not about skin colour, it's the fact that he wasn't born in the US. He'll, Rojo said as much on the pod a few weeks back.

2. Fisher is running very well and offers a lot of potential for Budapest and Paris. 3rd in a DL is a great indicator of that (btw, Chelimo won a DL, just to add to his CV).

I don't see why praising Fisher requires belittling Chelimo's achievements.

I fully agree with the points here with one minor modification. I don't care about an athlete's country of birth anymore than I care about the nationality or ethnicity of their parents. What is an extra point of pride for me, is when an athlete is produced by the US system.

Someone who ran in high school in the USA and the NCAA system is a better indication of the USA's ability to produce talent than someone who immigrated as a fully formed adult athlete. It doesn't matter to me that Meb Keflezighi was born in East Africa, because he started running in high school in the US and became an elite runner through his time at UCLA. Meb is a product of USA running.

Having said that, I'm still incredibly proud of the fact that the USA is a place where people like Chelimo and Lagat want to immigrate, obtain citizenship and represent in international competitions. It isn't like we are just buying athletes with oil money. I'm very proud to have them as Americans representing the USA. They just aren't a reflection of US system's ability to produce top talent.

John Wesley Harding wrote:

Regarding Thierry Ndikumwenayo - as has been noted, he has an interesting IAAF profile given his previous years’ progression, or honestly lack thereof. But imagine some of his performances in the context of his being an American:

17 years old - 8:06 3k
18 years old - 13:27 5k
19 years old - 28:18 road 10k
21 years old - 7:41 3k
22 years old - 9th at World XC (9th doesn’t exactly excite, but keep in mind it was a very competitive year where Barega
was 5th, Rhonex Kipruto was 6th, and the top American was Shadrack Kipchirchir in 34th).

If this were an American, he would obviously had garnered some discussion as an 18-22 year old, and the question in the last 2-3 years would have been why he wasn’t running much faster given his early promise.

Sure, anyone running a 7:25.93 3k might be doping, but it’s also possible that some of those popular doping rationalizations (he started running much more, never did speed work before, radically improved his nutrition, finally got a healthy stretch of training, etc.) are truthfully big factors here.

I have a soft spot for Burundians, since my high school XC team had a whole host of Burundian contributors whose families had immigrated due to civil war. The year we placed 4th in state, 4 of our scorers were Burundian. Aside from that, this isn’t the first time a runner from Burundi has
been a top-5 3k runner in
the world (see Venuste Niyongabo).

Pokitren wrote:

Swamer-Runner wrote:

I fully agree with the points here with one minor modification. I don't care about an athlete's country of birth anymore than I care about the nationality or ethnicity of their parents. What is an extra point of pride for me, is when an athlete is produced by the US system.

Someone who ran in high school in the USA and the NCAA system is a better indication of the USA's ability to produce talent than someone who immigrated as a fully formed adult athlete. It doesn't matter to me that Meb Keflezighi was born in East Africa, because he started running in high school in the US and became an elite runner through his time at UCLA. Meb is a product of USA running.

Having said that, I'm still incredibly proud of the fact that the USA is a place where people like Chelimo and Lagat want to immigrate, obtain citizenship and represent in international competitions. It isn't like we are just buying athletes with oil money. I'm very proud to have them as Americans representing the USA. They just aren't a reflection of US system's ability to produce top talent.

This can only partly be credited to the United States. I think it is the natural ability of these people to run that is primary. And the U.S. educational system only encourages the development of these abilities.

dmb wrote:

C’mon man, plenty of people of Americans have run 8:41 for 3200 at 17. No one has cracked 7:29 in the 3000 until Fisher. 7:25 is roughly equivalent to 12:43-44 for contextual purposes.

His previous PB at 3000 was this year and he ran 7:34. Are you accustomed to seeing people drop 8-9s PRs and moving up 300 slots on the all-time performance list in one fell swoop? Ok, so maybe he was not initiated to the finer points of racing the old 7 1/2 lapper and something just clicked? His 12:59 is equivalent to 7:29 after all. Maybe something in is 5K racing record will justify this performance…. Ooops, his previous personal best is 13:25.

SO, what you’re telling me is that I should credulously accept this ‘leap of quality’ becuase you like Burundians. I too am very fond of Mr. Niyongabo and his 3:29/3:46 ability. This is not a guy who was toiling in obscurity and just needed an opportunity. He lives in Spain and a consistent 13:20-13:30 performer who just happened to improve his 5K by 26s and his 3k by 16s THIS YEAR at age 25. Sorry sir, no sale.

THOUGHTSLEADER wrote:

dmb wrote:

C’mon man, plenty of people of Americans have run 8:41 for 3200 at 17. No one has cracked 7:29 in the 3000 until Fisher. 7:25 is roughly equivalent to 12:43-44 for contextual purposes.

His previous PB at 3000 was this year and he ran 7:34. Are you accustomed to seeing people drop 8-9s PRs and moving up 300 slots on the all-time performance list in one fell swoop? Ok, so maybe he was not initiated to the finer points of racing the old 7 1/2 lapper and something just clicked? His 12:59 is equivalent to 7:29 after all. Maybe something in is 5K racing record will justify this performance…. Ooops, his previous personal best is 13:25.

SO, what you’re telling me is that I should credulously accept this ‘leap of quality’ becuase you like Burundians. I too am very fond of Mr. Niyongabo and his 3:29/3:46 ability. This is not a guy who was toiling in obscurity and just needed an opportunity. He lives in Spain and a consistent 13:20-13:30 performer who just happened to improve his 5K by 26s and his 3k by 16s THIS YEAR at age 25. Sorry sir, no sale.

To be fair how many Americans ran 13:27 at age 18 in old spikes? I believe the answer is zero.

I agree that we'd need to know more about what was holding him back (all the ensuing years) outside of the 9th at World Cross in 2019 or 7:41 in old spikes as far as his performances on the track/XC. He was based in Spain throughout. New coach this year, training arrangement, injuries a problem in the past? Etc. Etc.

For context this is a lot like Mo Farah — 7:38/13:07/27:28 guy and an also-ran in global champs in 2009 to 12:53.1/26:46, gold and silver at '11 worlds and consistent winner on Diamond League in '11. Farah had this breakthrough at age 27-28 as opposed to 25.

Mohamed Katir actually feels a little less comparable due to his younger age, lack of opportunities/resources, and the timing with the pandemic. Either way, for the people wary of him he hasn't done the Gezaghene number of winning a medal while not being tested by the AIU/RTP and then disappearing off the face of the earth. He will have to win while being drug-tested heavily next year.

THOUGHTSLEADER wrote:

dmb wrote:

C’mon man, plenty of people of Americans have run 8:41 for 3200 at 17. No one has cracked 7:29 in the 3000 until Fisher. 7:25 is roughly equivalent to 12:43-44 for contextual purposes.

His previous PB at 3000 was this year and he ran 7:34. Are you accustomed to seeing people drop 8-9s PRs and moving up 300 slots on the all-time performance list in one fell swoop? Ok, so maybe he was not initiated to the finer points of racing the old 7 1/2 lapper and something just clicked? His 12:59 is equivalent to 7:29 after all. Maybe something in is 5K racing record will justify this performance…. Ooops, his previous personal best is 13:25.

SO, what you’re telling me is that I should credulously accept this ‘leap of quality’ becuase you like Burundians. I too am very fond of Mr. Niyongabo and his 3:29/3:46 ability. This is not a guy who was toiling in obscurity and just needed an opportunity. He lives in Spain and a consistent 13:20-13:30 performer who just happened to improve his 5K by 26s and his 3k by 16s THIS YEAR at age 25. Sorry sir, no sale.

To be fair how many Americans ran 13:27 at age 18 in old spikes? I believe the answer is zero.

I agree that we'd need to know more about what was holding him back (all the ensuing years) outside of the 9th at World Cross in 2019 or 7:41 in old spikes as far as his performances on the track/XC. He was based in Spain throughout. New coach this year, training arrangement, injuries a problem in the past? Etc. Etc.

For context this is a lot like Mo Farah — 7:38/13:07/27:28 guy and an also-ran in global champs in 2009 to 12:53.1/26:46, gold and silver at '11 worlds and consistent winner on Diamond League in '11. Farah had this breakthrough at age 27-28 as opposed to 25.

Mohamed Katir actually feels a little less comparable due to his younger age, lack of opportunities/resources, and the timing with the pandemic. Either way, for the people wary of him he hasn't done the Gezaghene number of winning a medal while not being tested by the AIU/RTP and then disappearing off the face of the earth. He will have to win while being drug-tested heavily next year.