Intersex athlete Christine Mboma wins 200 in 21.84

RunRagged wrote:

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When you say, "We don't hear nearly often enough just how male an Mboma or a Semenya really is," I don't know what you mean by "just how male." They have male sex chromosomes, male gonads (testes), other male repro organs (prostate, seminal vesicles), male levels of T, and male-typical sensitivity to T. They developed as males, and thus have much larger hearts and lungs and much greater cardiovascular capacity than women do, longer bones, narrower pelvises, male muscle mass and strength, male twitch fibers and so on. The only physical male feature they lack are normal-sized and shaped penises. Some might have no penis, others might have small or misshapen ones.

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well - the 'popular narrative', at least a popular advanced by advocates on her behalf, is that Semenya is a woman in all respects other than some trivial/probably marginal or ambigous T reading that could just as easily have arisen as a result of a condition such as PCOS. I don't agree with it. per my earlier post, sure, I don't think you can make a conclusive, in all respects watertight, case that a Semenya type belongs in the male class, but the arguments that she belongs in the female class would be far weaker still.

related, hypothetically, would an XX woman with acute PCOS, leading to a T reading of say 6 [or 10 or 15] nmol/L, be allowed to compete?

thanks.

apologies, you answered my hypothetical PCOS question already.

TFP_SA wrote:

Part of the problem seems to be one of transparency. We don’t hear nearly often enough just how male an Mboma or a Semenya really is. Of course it’s I’m by no means advocating a very public boxing-style weigh in, at which a baying crowd waits with baited breath for the results of Semenya’s T test, with Ms Semenya triumphantly adopting a flexed biceps pose following a positive result [or, presumably, crumpling into a heap after a fail], but, still, the truth needs to be out there...

It might be a problem in terms of causing some confusion / misunderstanding among the uninformed general public. But the solution should not be publicly disclosing the details of each DSD athlete's medical conditions. That's a serious breach of their privacy, unless they voluntarily agree to such disclosure. If they are willing to openly discuss their conditions, they should be more than welcome to do so. But no one should be forced to, especially for young people like Mboma and Masiiingi.

I think a lot of details about Semenya was already made public when the IAAF released the results of their "sex verification." So I don't think the problem is that the "truth is not out there." The problem is rather that most people don't know there are various types of DSD, and there is a very wide range of effect on athletic performance. And many people are "willfully ignorant" on the issue, because they are more interested in advancing their agenda.

We don't know much about Mboma's DSD, other than it is one of the categories designated in the WA's restricted events rule. Do we really need to know any more than that? Even if we do, I don't think that will change the attitudes of "willfully ignorant" general public. They are dead set on either banning every DSD athlete from women's sports with no exception or on allowing every DSD athlete based on self-identity. Very, very few people are even remotely interested in any kind of middle ground.

Semenya is the most wildly successful troll in athletics history. She can say anything she wants now, her advocates won't hear any contradictions and her millions are in the bank.

yeah. my personal instinct is to not even entertain a conversation about what Semenya does or doesn't identify as, it's totally irrelevant. if only because in the future I suppose there might be a genuine 'trans woman' version of her, someone who genuinely does appear to have a strong female gender identity, to go with her lack of external male genitalia. gender identity to me shouldn't matter at all, but taking the 'big picture' into account [the big picture being difficult to escape when issues of gender, race, & poverty interact] you can see why some people argue that it might.

but, as I think you hint, I think it's highly dubious that Semenya meaningfully identifies as female - in all the interviews i've seen she seems macho, boorish, quite possibly sexist, refuses to wear a stitch of halfway traditionally female clothing, etc etc. her wedding photos are IMO telling - in a couple of different ones [in different outfits] Semenya's wife poses with her hand squarely in the middle of Semenya's right pectoral, on what planet would you adopt that pose, for a very public photo, towards someone meant to be a 'woman'.

TFP_SA wrote:

yeah. my personal instinct is to not even entertain a conversation about what Semenya does or doesn't identify as, it's totally irrelevant. if only because in the future I suppose there might be a genuine 'trans woman' version of her, someone who genuinely does appear to have a strong female gender identity, to go with her lack of external male genitalia. gender identity to me shouldn't matter at all, but taking the 'big picture' into account [the big picture being difficult to escape when issues of gender, race, & poverty interact] you can see why some people argue that it might.

You mean, someone like Mboma? The "future" is already here.

And Semenya's gender identity has absolutely no relevance on Mboma. They are two different people.

Just Another Hobby Jogger wrote:

TFP_SA wrote:

yeah. my personal instinct is to not even entertain a conversation about what Semenya does or doesn't identify as, it's totally irrelevant. if only because in the future I suppose there might be a genuine 'trans woman' version of her, someone who genuinely does appear to have a strong female gender identity, to go with her lack of external male genitalia. gender identity to me shouldn't matter at all, but taking the 'big picture' into account [the big picture being difficult to escape when issues of gender, race, & poverty interact] you can see why some people argue that it might.

You mean, someone like Mboma? The "future" is already here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXju2C78vbY

And Semenya's gender identity has absolutely no relevance on Mboma. They are two different people.

Yeah, i really don't know what Mboma identifies or even claims to identify as, & as above am strongly of the view that it doesn't matter either way. The only key question is which of the existing M/F categories she fits into best.

She seems quite shy and self-conscious in a way that Semenya isn't. Her voice is obviously far higher than Semenya's - much more tenor than [Semenya's] baritone, this may or may not be as a result of effort by Mboma to moderate her voice/to appear more feminine, for sporting and possibly non-sporting purposes. Semenya doesn't even try to try.

RunRagged wrote:

Your point about Semenya's macho boorishness and sexism is illustrated by this interview from early 2015. Semenya says "her" childhood "was all about boys" and slags off girls - and the interviewer - for being "boring and soft":

https://youtu.be/Hvg50P4FwTk

Yes, that's fair. I suppose someone defending her would say, 'so what - Semenya is a very butch lesbian, but still very much a woman'. Most of the people who'd take this stance would obviously unhesitatingly embrace any biological man choosing to flip traditional gender roles to this extent as a 'woman', or at the very very least 'non binary'. Strange, isn't it, that Caster seems so sure that she's a "woman", I can't think why.

You’re way behind, and verbose.

I have said it many times before, and I will say it again: Semenya is a greedy and narcissistic a-hole.

At least some of you are catching on, if too late.

And again, as far as the women competitors are concerned: if they won’t stick up for themselves, then why should anyone else assist them? Until they refuse to compete in the same category as DSD-XY’s, they deserve exactly what they are getting.

Just wait until some guy comes along and goes 10.3 or 10.2. If this continues, it will happen. Sprinters are unlikely to put up with it, we see the beginnings of this in the 200m, but it will be ON if it reaches the 100m.

you're right, that endorsement isn't humorous in the way that Mo Farah hair straighteners or a FloJo stairlift would be, it's very, very, deeply cynical and inappropriate.

TFP_SA wrote:

Just Another Hobby Jogger wrote:

You mean, someone like Mboma? The "future" is already here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXju2C78vbY

And Semenya's gender identity has absolutely no relevance on Mboma. They are two different people.

Yeah, i really don't know what Mboma identifies or even claims to identify as, & as above am strongly of the view that it doesn't matter either way. The only key question is which of the existing M/F categories she fits into best.

She seems quite shy and self-conscious in a way that Semenya isn't. Her voice is obviously far higher than Semenya's - much more tenor than [Semenya's] baritone, this may or may not be as a result of effort by Mboma to moderate her voice/to appear more feminine, for sporting and possibly non-sporting purposes. Semenya doesn't even try to try.

They both have to identify as female to participate in women's competition. If they didn't there wouldn't be a problem.

Sprintgeezer wrote:

You’re way behind, and verbose.

I have said it many times before, and I will say it again: Semenya is a greedy and narcissistic a-hole.

At least some of you are catching on, if too late.

And again, as far as the women competitors are concerned: if they won’t stick up for themselves, then why should anyone else assist them? Until they refuse to compete in the same category as DSD-XY’s, they deserve exactly what they are getting.

Just wait until some guy comes along and goes 10.3 or 10.2. If this continues, it will happen. Sprinters are unlikely to put up with it, we see the beginnings of this in the 200m, but it will be ON if it reaches the 100m.

1, Whether Semenya us a greedy, narcissistic a-hole has nothing to do with Mboma.

2. Other women would not refuse to compete with Mboma. They have so much to lose. -- prize money, appearance fees, sponsor's bonus, and so forth. No one refused to compete with Semenya, but the rule eventually changed.

3. The current restriction on 400m - mile will be extended to all other events before anyone runs 10.3. And it will not take any mass boycott.

1. Possibly true, but irrelevant. I was responding to the comments in this thread about Semenya.

2. Remuneration in track is really top-heavy. The winner takes most. Many women suffered significant damages—some huge—during Semenya’s reign. There is a price to be paid for everything, they have just been too risk-averse to pay it. Again, their decision. They deserve to get their axxes handed to them, and to lose the money, glory, and personal fulfillment and sense of accomplishment.

3. Remains to be seen. And in any case, it will not happen before significant, irreversible, un-compensated, and totally avoidable damage is sustained. Hardly an equitable, just, or even worthwhile system for women.